[rust-throwaway1]

I'm inclined to believe the rust moderation team even though they haven't disclosed any specifics. The way the core team exercises absolute authority in spite of community complaints has always rubbed me the wrong way. They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent.

I do not recognize most of the core team these days, but Steve Klabnik and Ashley Williams stand out as likely culprits. I have personally submitted an email with the Rust moderation team to complain about Klabnik (and also mod-team member Andrew Gallant) and their abrasive behavior on reddit. Several months later I received a response stating they agreed that Klabnik went over the line and that they would warn him. Meanwhile Ashley "kill all men" Williams has an extremely lengthy reputation for her behavior in open source[1]. When it was announced she was joining the rust community team, there was a large push back from the community but the reddit/discourse mods censored everything[2][3] and the core team chose to let Williams join despite the complaints about her history of racism, sexism, and antagonism.

[1]: https://archive.fo/f10KK

[2]: https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/7nx3cm/announcement_a... (https://archive.fo/ISXJF)

[3]: https://internals.rust-lang.org/t/announcement-ashley-willia... (https://archive.fo/9yW9I)

[chias]

For what it's worth, Andrew Gallant ("BurntSushi", the author of that post) is probably the voice I most trust on the Internet today. For a long time now, he has demonstrated that he is extremely judicious, level-headed, and well-thought-out on any position I've ever seen him take. People are not always polite / nice to him, and he unfailingly responds kindly and honestly with a level of effort that is truly amazing. He consistently demonstrates that he truly cares on a personal level, even when the situation is "unfair" or that level of care isn't being reciprocated.

All that to say: this message came from Andrew, and I believe it without question.

[paulgdp]

Having read a great deal from him, I just want to confirm everything said about Andrew Gallant, and I absolutely trust him too!

This blog post is a great testament to his human skills: https://blog.burntsushi.net/foss/

[ignoramous]

> They present a facade of caring while crushing dissent.

This is a rampant tactic on Wikipedia usually employed by experienced gatekeepers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:CRUSH and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SQS

[cyber_kinetist]

But the mod team who resigned were precisely the ones behind moderating those Reddit/Discourse threads though. So I don't think there was animosity between the two teams from the start, but rather that tensions grew over the years until it became unmanageable.

My interpretation is that the drama happening around the core team (like the things you've mentioned) gets increasingly overwhelming for the mod team to handle, leading to complaints against the core team for causing such drama (which they do not have the sufficient resources nor actual power to handle). This further escalates and devolves into a worse relationship between the two, leading to the resignation.

From the thread on /r/rust one of the mods (different from the Rust's mods) talked about the relationship between the Core and the Mod team:

    Bans. We do not directly enforce bans, instead we ask Core to enforce them for us, and Core will double-check our work (though without access to the case, unless complainants are OK with that) -- essentially ensuring that we've done our due diligence, given a fair chance to the person, and that we're following the "escalation" procedure.
    Bans (bis). Core may enforce bans by themselves, then let us know.
    Involvement. When a Core Team Member is involved in a complaint, or a difficult relationship, we play our mediator/arbitrator role, stepping in and attempting to figure out the bottom of the issue and resolve it peacefully -- much like we do with any other Rust Team Member, really.

This is maybe a workable agreement if the Core and the Mod team went along well, but currently it seems like that's not the case. The last clause (Involvement) basically tells that "we really don't want the two teams to fight, and things should be resolved with common sense". Now that this is way out of the window, perhaps it would be a good time for the Rust contributors to reevaluate their team structure.

[avinassh]

> But the mod team who resigned were precisely the ones behind moderating those Reddit/Discourse threads though.

I thought same as well, but seems reddit mods are different:

> Please note that the official Rust moderation team is not the same organization as the team that moderates the subreddit here on /r/rust. The subreddit is an unofficial space, and though it is frequented by many who are affiliated with the project, it remains independent from the Rust project. The /r/rust mod team is not resigning from moderating the subreddit.

> In the interest of disclosure, two of the moderators who are resigning from the official mod team are moderators here on this subreddit (matthieum and llogiq). They appear to have not resigned their position here, which I appreciate, since they're rather excellent moderators. However, in the interest of impartiality I am asking them to recuse themselves from taking moderator action in this thread (they may still comment as usual if they wish, of course).

https://old.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/moderation_tea...

[cyber_kinetist]

Yes, as you’ve said, some of the mods in the Mod team were also the subreddit mods, and they deleted the comments and locked the threads by their own volition (even without requirement from the Core team, so this reinforces my interpretation). It’s likely that the Mod team wasn’t adversarial with the Core team from the start, but tensions gradually grew as the drama surrounding the core team got unmanageable.

[CRConrad]

> Yes, as you’ve said, some of the mods in the Mod team were also the subreddit mods, and they deleted the comments and locked the threads by their own volition (even without requirement from the Core team, so this reinforces my interpretation)

But AFAICS the core team being involved in moderation activities has nothing to do with Reddit. That quote above on how the teams were supposed to cooperate was about moderation of the official Rust forums, wasn't it? Reddit isn't one of those.

So if you're seeing your interpretation confirmed, that's just... Wrong. It doesn't confirm anything of the kind.

[Angius]

The r/node thread has been deleted, but here's the archived version of it: https://archive.fo/f10KK

Archive.org version for good measure: https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddi...

[rust-throwaway1]

Wow, I swear the r/node link worked when I posted it. Thanks for the archived version; I updated my comment.

[timeon]

Does it have something to do with this: https://twitter.com/steveklabnik/status/1437441118745071617 ?

[CryZe]

No, that has been deconfirmed on Reddit: Edit 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/qzme1z/comment/hlne24...

[mlindner]

That wasn't quite what they said. They basically said that this isn't about Amazon, not that it's about these specific people.

[mdoms]

None of the links you have provided shed any light because it's all deleted comments. Would you mind elaborating on Ashley Williams and her supposed "racism, sexism and antagonism"?

[Angius]

Here's the archived version: https://archive.fo/f10KK

[pzo]

link doesn't work - return 403 Forbidden

[Angius]

Weird, it does work for me... Perhaps try other snapshots? https://archive.fo/https://www.reddit.com/r/node/comments/6w...

[nabakin]

Archive.is blocks Cloudflare DNS. That may be why you can't access it.

[Angius]

Alternatively, from archive.org: https://web.archive.org/web/20170828212225/https://www.reddi...

[unanswered]

The problem with this theory is that the moderation team has been entirely supportive of Ms. 'Kill' so far, and actively works to silence dissent about her position in public Rust spaces. (Maybe not so much as the unofficial mods, but I personally was on the receiving end of llogiq's overreaction in /r/rust to any dissent.) I believe they would take her side in the dispute which Klabnik vaguebooked about a few months ago.

[zozbot234]

The Rust Moderation Team is not the same as the r/rust "mods". Yes, this is confusing.

[unanswered]

They aren't the same, but llogiq is both. (Now just an /r/rust mod.)