[ratww]

> and most of the artists sampling it would have taken that sample from other electronic artists rather than from the original Winstons vinyl

It was already popular in hip hop several years before it became popular in the underground electronic scene. It was used by Salt-n-Pepa in 1986, and by NWA, Ghetto Boys, 2 Live Crew and Ultramagnetic MCs in 1988. Even Janet Jackson used it in 1990. Heck, Informer by Snow used it! And those are the ones we know. Hardly underground.

In hip hop it was most certainly taken from the vinyl, as samplers with the required storage were still quite pricy at the time, not to mention most producers were doing their own sampling. The track name was probably passed from DJ to DJ.

The Amen craze in Electronic music only started in the early 90s. There was already some break beats in the last years of the 80s, but it was mostly Funky Drummer. It was around 90/91 when electronic musicians started doing it, from Atari Teenage Riot to Carl Cox, but it was already a thing in hip hop.

[hnlmorg]

> In hip hop it was most certainly taken from the vinyl, as samplers with the required storage were still quite pricy at the time

Hardware samplers were. But a lot of home studios had an Atari ST or Amiga. Plus regardless of the hardware used, those samples would have to be stored somewhere (even on hardware samplers) to be able to playback in the first place. I mean how else are you going to sequence it, save it when you're done and recall it again after? A lot of hardware from that era, and especially the Atari ST and Amiga, would have floppy drives and it was pretty common for people to share a sample disks.

I've posted this before but here is a video of Norman Cook showing off his Atari ST: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLjgXPDzeZo

[ratww]

The Creator app he runs on the Atari ST is a MIDI sequencer, not a DAW or sampler. The machine is probably not fast enough for realtime sampling. For sampling he is very well known for having used a pair of Akai S950s, each with 2.25MB of RAM. You can see them both on the rack behind him with the round yellow stickers. Just in case: this specific model also came out after most of the recording I mentioned.

Anyway, I was talking about 1986 and 1988... Rockefeller Skank was released in 1998. It's not exactly representative of a hip-hop setup from 12 years before. Either way, it is quite clear that he also samples from vinyl, like I said.

Anyway, I don't see how this is relevant to the topic. My point is that the sample was well known and was used in mainstream hip-hop from the beginning, it was never only an "underground secret distributed in disks"... that happened much later than the usage in hip-hop.

If there's any pre-1986 underground track using the Amen Break, or any documented use, it would be very interesting to know, because it would should be part of music history!

[hnlmorg]

> The Creator app he runs on the Atari ST is a MIDI sequencer, not a DAW.

I didn't say it was a DAW. I assumed it was a tracker but didn't really look that closely at it.

> The machine is probably not fast enough for realtime sampling.

By the late 80s it was. There were definitely DAWs available for the ST. But Amiga was definitely the king for home sampling.

> For sampling he is very well known for having used a pair of Akai S950s, each with 2.25MB of RAM. You can see them both on the rack behind him with the round yellow stickers. Just in case: this specific model also came out after most of the recording I mentioned.

Well as you later go on to say, Rockefeller Skank was quite a bit later. But both the ST and Amiga were used for sampling. In fact coincidentally there's a discussion on the HN home page right now about doing exactly (re: Trackers). Lots of videos on Youtube of Amiga samplers too.

> Anyway, I was talking about 1986 and 1988... Rockefeller Skank was released in 1998.

Various models of Atari and Amiga were already out and available in the mid-80s and I very much doubt Norman Cook bought his ST new in 1995 to record Rockefeller Skank. But I do take your point that on this specific occasion he wasn't using the ST for sampling and nor was the ST powerful enough when it first hit the market. I believe the Amiga was. Also plenty of hardware sported floppy disk drives too (like the aforementioned Akai S950s). So my point about producers sharing sample disks still stands.

I guess this is a futile discussion though because we'll never really know who sampled Amen, Brother and who borrowed the sample of their mates.

> Either way, it is quite clear that he also samples from vinyl, like I said.

Loads of people sampled from vinyl. I've even done that. I wasn't arguing that didn't happen. All I was saying that there was also a lot of sample swapping going on and given the prevalence of the Amen break I'd wager a lot of producers had the sample included with a percussion set without knowing its origin. I mean it's included in the Hammerhead program exactly like that! I've got stacks of disks floating about of percussion I didn't directly rip.

> Anyway, I don't see how this is relevant to the topic. My point is that the sample was well known and was used in mainstream hip-hop from the beginning, it was never only an "underground secret distributed in disks"... that happened much later than the usage in hip-hop.

It's relevant because I'm saying that I think it was less well known than you claim. I think it appears more well known now because the history of the Amen break is more widely known (the kind of cognitive bias where we think things that we recently learn then seem like obvious facts that we always knew).

You might be right to be honest and it might be my memory of the era that is flawed. :/ However if that is the case then I find it weird that the sample wouldn't have been cleared by their big hip-hop labels and that the Winstons were aware of it's use but nobody cared enough to do anything about it until 10 or 20 years later when it was too late.

[ratww]

> All I was saying that there was also a lot of sample swapping going on and given the prevalence of the Amen break I'd wager a lot of producers had the sample included with a percussion set without knowing its origin

I never said otherwise. What I said, however is that this sample swapping you mention only happened in the 90s. Not in the 80s.

Your point was that it was widely used on "underground electronic productions" before it was used on any mainstream tracks. There is no recorded history of it, period. I'd be happy to discover that there were some usage, but there's no evidence.

My other point was that the history of sampling in the early days of hip hop is very well documented: it almost always came directly from vinyls, even when samplers were involved, due to the limitations of the machines at the time.

[hnlmorg]

Sounds like I'm misremembering the 80s then. To be fair, after a while the years do seem to merge together. :)

[ratww]

To answer your edit:

> However if that is the case then I find it weird that the sample wouldn't have been cleared by their big hip-hop labels and that the Winstons were aware of it's use but nobody cared enough to do anything about it until 10 or 20 years later when it was too late

The Winstons leader claims he only found out around 1996. The question is, why didn't he seek royalties from people who used it afterwards, like Oasis, Norman Cook, Dua Lipa, Naruto soundtrack, etc?

My guess is that the track is in a bit of copyright limbo, because it's basically a cover of two Impressions songs. Another one is that the recording company owns the masters. They seems to have been bought by MGM.