Ask HN: Have you ever been boreout? If so, how did you cope/fix it?

[boredaway]

Have you ever been at a job that has caused you boreout [0] and if so, how did you cope with it?

Context: I am currently working at a startup that I believe is causing me boreout.

The people are really nice, but I was hired to do a very specific type of work, which is not what I've been assigned to do for the last 12 months, even after bringing it up to my manager several times.

Instead I've been doing miscellaneous stuff that has nothing to do with the original project I was hired for (and the reason I was interested in this job in the first place), and although I did switch "projects", I feel like my work is not aligned with the whatever the Product team wants, so it feels pointless.

What worries me is that even studying interview problems to be able to switch jobs is becoming extremely hard, I feel zero creativity when trying to solve them and thus self-esteem problems are starting to appear. Same goes for side-projects and other things. It feels like my brain is rotten and can't produce anything of value.

I feel trapped and I am not sure how to get myself out of this rut.

Any advice is appreciated.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boreout

[tesin]

Yes, I had a job like that. At one point I literally had nothing to do, even after asking.

I made getting another job a priority, which was compounded by a 360 review (job feedback) that was meant to be anonymous, but turned out to be anything but. The fallout was my supervisor left (might be been asked to) and I got a job elsewhere - 50% better pay and infinitely more stimulating.

Find a way to the exit.

[boredaway]

Thanks for sharing.

Definitely trying to exit.

It just feels very hard to study enough to be able to get a decent job. Everything feels so dull and uninteresting.

[mateo411]

You should take a few days off. If you are in the US, there is a holiday coming up. It doesn't appear that they have anything pressing for you to work on. Take a day or two off for yourself, and then start looking for another job.

[MathMonkeyMan]

A few days? This is better than not taking time off, but I need at least a couple weeks to even remember who I am.

[buffington]

You may simply be in the wrong line of work.

I've made a career of making software for the past 25+ years. If I didn't love the work, I'd be miserable, because there are times when things aren't interesting, or the work feels pointless, or it's hard or tedious.

When I start feeling this way, I step back and try to get a different perspective. I might think it's pointless, but am missing something? The thing that works for me is to try to quantify its value. The goal is to try to prove it's pointless, but more often than not, it proves I'm not aware of all the reasons why the work needs to be done. Or it helps me see how, with some adjustments, it could be very valuable.

When things ares simply slow, it's also a great time to learn how to be better at your role. For me, it's learning new programming languages, or learning about new processes or tools. I think that because I love what I do I have zero lack of motivation to learn how to be better at it.

If that's not happening for you, it may be that you don't love the work, or what the work enables. If you hate guns, for example, you probably wouldn't be that happy working for a gun manufacturer, no matter how well it paid. But if you love music, you could do the exact same kind of work and love it while working for a company that helps put more music in the world. What your efforts enable is crazy influential on how you feel about the work you do.

The latter part is a big deal. There have been times in my career where I was getting paid ludicrous amounts of money, yet I didn't believe in what the company was doing. That was a perfect recipe for burnout, let alone boreout.

For at least the last 7-10 years I've been lucky enough to work for companies who's missions I very much support and have supported, and know my efforts actually mean something. In one case, I worked for a charity and got paid very little money, but still count it as hardest and the most important work I've ever done. I'd still be there today if I could afford it (and have real plans of being there again in semi-retirement).

I recognize that being able to pick what work you do is a privilege that not everyone can take advantage of. If you're in that position, do whatever you can to find something that you enjoy doing. It may be in a totally different industry than the one you're involved in now. It may feel like a demotion, or that it requires you to take a pay cut. It's worth it if you like the work.

Maybe it helps to examine what you find important in a job. For me the right one is one that, in this order:

1. focuses on purpose over profits 2. allows me to decide how best to solve problems 3. pays enough that I don't have to worry about money

If the job can't satisfy those three things, I find one that does.

[boredaway]

Thanks for the advice!

I have actually thought about changing my line of work, but whenever I find something interesting about software dev, I just can't see myself doing anything else.

Part of the frustration I feel, I think, has to do with not being able to do something that actually adds value to the business, and in general feeling like my position is just useless, not necessarily the line of work per se.

I've been doing software dev for more than 15 years an I've loved pretty much every minute of it, so even though I'm definitely interested in other things, like cooking, I just don't see myself doing that for a living.

Also, funnily enough, the company I work for has a really interesting mission, it's just that my position in particular feels pointless and directionless, and the management team doesn't seem to care or know how to fix that.

[giantg2]

I asked for something to do today. I was give 3 separate 1 line changes. Now I'm just watching the builds and waiting to do some cursory tests.

[notreallyserio]

Oh yes, those anonymous-but-not processes are a killer. I recently dealt with that. If I didn't have equity I'd be goooone.

[superduperycomb]

My honest answer is Ritalin. I occasionally use it to get into a groove again and it helps me explore new interests that I can continue the momentum with off the prescription. This might be controversial and or unhelpful, but it’s my personal experience with this. My job is steady and well paid, so I don’t want to move to a stressful startup. I also have adhd since childhood, so YMMV.

[buffington]

With all due respect, this is awful advice.

Even for those with ADHD, recommending a drug as the solution isn't something that works long term.

I too have wrestled with ADHD my entire life. The term doesn't do the disorder justice, because if anything, there's no deficit of attention. ADHD gives you the ability to focus on way too many things all the time. It's an attention surplus. Has anyone ever asked you "superduperycomb, you say you have ADHD, but I saw you totally locked into [whatever] the other day. Like, you couldn't even hear me, you were so gone." The [whatever] for me is video games. Or, as a little kid, it was Lego. Everyone is surprised to learn that super-focus, or hyper-focus is a symptom of ADHD. ADHD is mainly a disorder that impacts proper executive function. Non ADHD brains can say to themselves "alright, time for a break" and easily transition.

ADHD meds help with executive function and are great at giving someone with ADHD a way of applying their attention to one thing at a time.

As you probably know, no amount of Ritalin or Adderall can make you love something you're not interested in. Sure, meds can help you stay on track once you get started, but they don't help you enjoy something you don't like doing.

Taking meds just to stay on track doing someone you're not into is a recipe for all sorts of other problems. Burnout, for one, but also depression. You wake up one day and realize you've been super effective at sticking to a thing you hate, all while ignoring relationships, putting off personal needs, dealing with the side effects of powerful meds.

[boredaway]

I'm not sure if I am even able to buy that without a prescription and am a bit worried about health side-effects, but I do appreciate the suggestion.

I guess I would need to talk to a doctor first, and perhaps they will find it appropriate that I do take meds in my case.

[randomopining]

Yeah but you gotta use it very sparingly. Like I think once every few weeks max? Otherwise the body adapts.

[nicbou]

I went freelance. It was a coincidence more than a planned exit, but that last employer made me very confident about my decision.

In any case, I don't recommend staying, unless you can find a way to benefit from staying, like a generous training budget.

[boredaway]

That is something I have been thinking about (going freelance) but the few times I've tried, the projects are just sooo crappy and messy that I just don't see myself doing that.

I have not been able to figure out how to handle cleints that want to have technical input (i.e. no, the way you are asking me to build your online store will not work and will just leave me on the hook when it fails), so I always shy away from that kind of work.

Definitely considering it though. I guess I just need to figure out where to learn how to handle clients.

Thanks!

[nicbou]

It varies so much from client to client. Bigger projects tend to go better than with penny-pinching SMBs, but occasionally small clients are really fun to work with.

Better yet is not to have direct customers and sell a product, but that's much harder to get right I think.

[adamhp]

I would love to consider this, just have the golden handcuffs situation and have no idea how I'd even come close to current salary (average for FAANG, minus equity). Do you feel like you make as much as you did FT?

[nicbou]

I made more in less time. Freelancing earns you a risk premium, since no one is taking a cut.

Now I live from a website I run. I'd do it regardless of income because of the lifestyle it permits.

[adamhp]

Yeah, I think I'm mostly convinced that the lifestyle is what I want, but I'm not totally sure. The lifestyle that a FAANG salary affords is not so bad either.

[giantg2]

Wow, that's the definition off my existence.

Seriously, the vast majority of my career has been boring and frustrating. I never knew the word before this.

[jcynix]

Switching jobs might be the best solution. If you miss the motivation, you might want to learn about the role dopamin plays in motivation. A good start might be the podcasts at https://hubermanlab.com/

[mxuribe]

Perhaps try the following - which admittedly could be considered risky depending on your tolerance?

1. Save up as much money as reasonable. This will help buffer you in case you lose your future job (and can not return to your old job).

2. Retain as much of a good relationship with your current employer as possible...Because if you lose any other jobs, you want a fallback. This might seem odd, but when i worked in real estate, apparently that was somewhat not odd. Folks jumped ship from one realtor company to another and after some time back again, etc. Not everyone, and not all the time, but this industry more than others that i've worked in seemed to be ok with this. (I'm not suggesting that you joina real esate company, simply that some industries are ok with same person jumping back and forth into a company.) Also, if you hit a really hard time and have dependents and/or need any benefits like healthcare that come with this, existing job...you want to be able to return to your legacy job in a pinch and provide for your family, etc.

3. Once you have some savings, and a good relationship with soon-to-be-former employer, try one of the following: join a startup, and maybe join it at a slightly junior level than what you do currently; or, start looking at contract-related/project-related work; or, try and start your own business (I suggest a 1-person business at first...do not go for some mega business or even a multi-person company right away). In other words, do NOT try to get a "conventional" full-time/permanent, 40-hour per week sort of role at a non-startup firm. Any of these options will expose you to very different scenarios...and all could be something that you either try for a short time and then move onto other jobs...Or, if you enjoy, can stick to the same one.

I want to clarify again, that doing the above is risky...or at least, if i were in your frame of mind (as you described), it would feel very risky to me. And even if you can mitigate the risk at first, you might still feel overwhelmed since even only the "newness" might open up new/rusty synapses in your brain...likely giving you that nervous though maybe exhilarating feeling. FINAL CAUTION: I am not a doctor nor life coach or anything like that...I am only a random person/outside observer on the internet, so please take my suggestion with a grain of salt for what is appropriate for your life. Good luck!!!!

[boredaway]

Thanks for the suggestions. A few comments:

For 1) I am saving as much as I can, but definitely thinking of eating my savings is frightening. I already did that a few years ago where I used up all my savings to start a startup and nothing came out of it (monetarily, albeit I did got tons of experience), so doing that again feels paralyzing. Definitely aiming for, say, using up savings for at most 3 months (ideally).

For 2) that is an odd one, although I do understand the reasoning. I never really burn bridges when I leave beacause you never know what the future holds, and like I said, the people in this company are actually nice, so no issues there. I do find it weird to think about coming back because I am don't think things will change any time soon.

For 3) One of the things that makes me feel paralyzed is that after some 3-4 years in startups, and after doing my own for about 4 years, I feel like maybe a regular 9-5 is what I need. Of course, "the grass is greener on the other side" applies here, and that's why I find it hard to jump ship.

In any case, just hearing others' opinions does help and appreciate your thoughts on this. Also, definitely not taking it as professional advice so no worries :)

[culopatin]

Learn something new in your free time. Use that to change jobs.

That’s the only fix I see. Learning something new is always exciting, even if you don’t think it is fun, and it allows you to sell more capabilities and expand the range of jobs you could apply for.

I’m in the same situation. Bored with IT. I want to do software dev. I’ve been working on a personal project and applying to jobs. It’s brutal to change industries with no experience, but I’m not giving up.

[boredaway]

I am definitely trying, but it's just very very hard to have the motiviation.

Trying a bit of cooking and chess (so not related to software dev) and although I enjoy it, I have a hard time remembering stuff (e.g. chess openings).

Same for software dev stuff (e.g. reading Designing Data Intensive applications, which is great and interesting, but having a hard time reading more than 2 or 3 pages before drifting off)

Thanks for the advice though. Definitely looking to keep pushing in that front.

[culopatin]

You need a project. I also couldn’t just read stuff to “maybe use later”. It is very frustrating.

I have since started a Spring framework project because I see Java postings at my company left and right and although I may not understand everything going into it, it all kind of explains itself as I work with it. If I were to read a Spring framework book, I’d be lost if i didn’t have a platform to play with.

I found what to do as a project through my girlfriend. She’s in molecular cell biology and we identified a problem that affects the community of phycologists and I started working on a tool that I think should help a lot and might land me a paper.

I’m not going to lie, it gets frustrating sometimes. I have no mentor or any friends in software to help me out when I’m confused and I have to take a few days away from it to let my brain relax and try again later.

I built it to the point of “well ok! Looks like it kinda works!” And then I realized that what I had built would be a problem down the road.So here I am refactoring the core of the app because “this MAY be an issue in the future let’s just fix it now”. And I got stuck a bit. There is nothing I want more than publish this thing and have something to show to employers.

[RonaldOlzheim]

I also couldn’t just read stuff to “maybe use later”. It is very frustrating. --> basicly me

´I have since started a Spring framework project because I see Java postings at my company left and right and although I may not understand everything going into it´ -->Can you send me the link through linkedin?

Note: I have been thinking of a tool and i´m trying to put the right pieces of added value together.

The problem: The encoding and decoding is more but not less. Meaning: time is valueble --> I want to build a framework to work smarter, more linked and much faster.

The solution I did some thinking and i would like to talk to you about it. Ronald Olzheim.

[JohnFen]

I learned something new today! I'd never heard of "boreout" before. I had been thinking that I was suffering from long-term burnout, but perhaps it's this instead.

I don't have an answer for you, though. What I think I'm likely to do is take a year or so off work entirely.

[boredaway]

I've experienced burnout before (when working about 16 hrs a day, 7 days a week, being an engineer for Big Tech at the same time as trying to build my own startup... bad idea in restrospective) and this is something different albeit very easy to confuse with it.

The stress is there, the self-esteem issues are there, as well as the feeling that there's just no way out of it, so it took me a while to figure out it was boreout and not burnout.

If you are able to take a year off, definitely seems like a great idea.

I have fantasized about that for a while but unfortunately even though I've been saving for a long time, it's nowhere near enough for a full year, since I have dependants. I am able to take off about 3 months and am seriously considering it.

[jvalencia]

I've found it really helpful to re-challenge yourself. Do it faster, do it better, learn the underside, read the sources.

In the end, you'll create real value while improving yourself. Then it's an easy matter to be recognized or move on.

[gidorah]

I first learn to code Python during a boreout job. I was a management accountant, so only had work to do for the first 10 days of a month. No one bothered me as it looked enough like work.

[RonaldOlzheim]

https://twitter.com/holman

´Recovering Programmers' is about moving past boundaries of the mental capability.

[notreallyserio]

I'm in a job like that now. I'm not solving interesting problems, mostly just doing REST junk. And I end up waiting for code reviews[0] which occur long after I've completed my code.

I don't have a solution other than switching jobs. There are plenty out there, I know we're constantly interviewing[1].

0: I move on to other tasks, but that incomplete task lingers and takes up brain. That exacerbated the boredom.

1: Won't share a link, for obvious reasons.