[Ensorceled]

> Go back to other discussions about veganism here on HN and you will see the common anti-vegan memes.

You will also see a lot of outlandish claims about veganism, human diet and health and, food in general which is generally where the backlash starts.

I've seen claims like "humans have evolved to be vegan", "beef only has vitamin b12 because of b12 supplements", "if you eat properly, your body will generate it's own vitamin b12".

You'll also see dismissive, no true Scotsman, responses to issues with vegan diets like struggles to get enough b12, calcium and iodine.

I try to eat vegan, or at least vegetarian, a few days a week, mostly by eating traditionally vegetarian meals. Impossible meat is highly processed and is neither healthy nor a climate change solution.

[Spivak]

Judging any group by its worst members isn't the most charitable regardless of the group. You end up not really making an argument outside of "I found a ridiculous person in this group" which like, yeah, true. But when you imply that they're somehow representative or to be taken seriously you end up just exposing your prejudices and/or ignorance. Dogpiling a person who thinks you can photosynthesize b12 is fine -- they're nuts. But if that person sours your opinion of V's then you clearly already had issues with them.

Veganism and vegetarianism aren't synonymous with healthy, they don't even try to be. It's actually a point of annoyance among V's that "vegetarian" options at restaurants try to be "light" and healthy when you really just want a basket of fries dipped in vegan mayo. Same with the aversion to processed foods, it's nothing to do with V's at all -- that's the "whole foods" movement thing. Some V's care about the environment, some V's care about whole foods, some V's care about animal suffering. The former two probably wouldn't eat an Impossible Burger, the latter might.

[Ensorceled]

I'm not sure you are replying to. I have vegan and vegetarian friends and family; I certainly don't judge vegans according to its worst members.

I find the "worst" of vegans annoying and pedalling dangerous myths. Eating vegan while staying healthy is hard work and real health problems can occur if you don't put in that work.

[kaycebasques]

I agree that some vegans also make outlandish claims but I think it's taking it too far to say that this is "generally where the backlash starts", because that implies that it's our fault / we caused it. There are a lot of vested interests that have purely selfish motives for attacking veganism and would do it regardless of any outlandish claims on the part of vegans.

[Ensorceled]

> I agree that some vegans also make outlandish claims but I think it's taking it too far to say that this is "generally where the backlash starts", because that implies that it's our fault / we caused it.

Sorry, if someone makes dangerous claims like "you'll generate your own b12 after switching to a whole food diet", it is their fault if they get dog piled and memed.

There is anti-vegan prejudice on HN, I've seen it, but the real backlash is usually when the defence of the vegan philosophy gets outlandish.

[Alupis]

> I agree that some vegans also make outlandish claims but I think it's taking it too far to say that this is "generally where the backlash starts", because that implies that it's our fault / we caused it.

There's the old vegan joke for a reason:

   How do you know someone is a vegan? They'll tell you all about it...

I think vegans get a bad rep because too often they feel the need to convert others to veganism too. Vegans aren't alone here, super devote religious people do this too, the guy in your office that just got into standing desks does it too, etc...

When people make a choice they believe is the one true way to do something, it's difficult to see others not join in - after all, you feel you've made the choice because it's healthy/will save your life/save the planet/whatever, how could you just watch others harm themselves?

Just live and let live... other people don't and shouldn't care if you choose to be a vegan or not.

Not targeting you in particular... just general observations. The "as a vegan..." line is about as tired as the "as a libertarian I believe X..." line. Nobody cares what you are or believe.

[kevinh]

If you're hanging out with someone, it's almost impossible for it not to come up that you're vegan, since a large amount of places to eat have no vegan-friendly foods. You either have to bring up that you can't eat somewhere (since it has nothing you can eat) or not eat at all (prompting questions about that).

[Alupis]

Good point. I guess the only time someone should care about your dietary preference is if you're having a dinner party or going out to eat.

That's appropriate use of the "I'm a vegan" line...

Just don't go over the top and tell people they're bad for eating a hamburger or inject your veganism into otherwise irrelevant conversation.

[boston_clone]

> Just live and let live.

...except for animals, right?

This is a prime example of the dissonance that comes from having carnism as a dominant ideology for dietary preference.

[Alupis]

Eating what biology intended you to eat is not an ideology.

Making a conscious decision to go against biology and select a different dietary preference is indeed an ideology (unless there is a real medical reason you cannot eat something, such as allergies).

[boston_clone]

There is nothing about eating fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes that goes against our biology. The American Dietetics Association recognizes a vegetarian diet as appropriate for all stages of life [0]. Meat is not a requirement to live a healthy life, and can - in some cases and excess - detriment overall health. Additionally, current animal agricultural practices are harmful to the environment.

0. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27886704/

[Alupis]

That's quite a straw man you've weaved there.

First, nobody said anything about eating only meat as a diet. I'd wager zero people do that - you would quickly develop vitamin deficiencies and ultimately fall ill and die.

Secondly, you've moved the goal posts to vegetarianism, which is not veganism.

Third, just because a vegetarian diet can be sustainable (in the sense you won't fall ill) doesn't mean it's the natural diet for a human. It's not... Your teeth and many other parts of your human body tell us differently.

Fourth, there are several cultures on this planet that strongly favor vegetarianism, but none are strictly vegan and few are strictly vegetarian. As already pointed out, vegans often have to take supplements to remain healthy. That's biology telling you that diet isn't natural.

Lastly, deciding to be a vegan because you believe current agriculture practices are harmful to the environment is a choice based off your beliefs and therefore is an ideology. That was the original assertion.

[cheese_goddess]

> There is nothing about eating fruits, vegetables, grains, and legumes that goes against our biology.

I am genuinely curious to know why you say that. The other poster didn't say anything about not eathing fruit and vegetables etc. They said:

=> Making a conscious decision to go against biology and select a different dietary preference is indeed an ideology (unless there is a real medical reason you cannot eat something, such as allergies).

I can't see where in that comment the OP said or implied that it "goes against our biology" to eat fruit and veg etc. It's clear to me that what they said goes "against biology" is not eating any meat. That is what characterises the vegan diet: the absence of meat and animal products, not the presence of fruit and vegetables.

So why did you say that eating fruit etc doesn't go against biology? Who said it does?

Did the OP change their comment between the time you replied to it and the time I read your comments?

[elif]

Your only argument about nutrition was regarding B12, for which the questionably trademarked product has 130% DV. Then you broaden your conclusion to somehow not addressing climate change?

So i'll address that one. The product is 98% soy with coconut, and sunflower oil to help it cook. Not particularly climate-intensive, soy is a valuable crop to rotate for the soil ecology in a country that produces so much corn to feed your dinner cows.

[ncmncm]

Just stepping in to mention that kombucha has enough B12 even for people who have an autoimmune disorder that interferes with absorbing B12.

It runs $2.50 - $3.50 / pint in grocery stores, but I make it at home for under $0.20.