[Mordisquitos]

This very much reinforces my scepticism and distrust towards this trend of branded so-called "meat-substitutes" and "plant-based cheeses" etc. I am not a vegetarian or a vegan but, if I were, I would simply eat vegetables, legumes, pasta, rice, bread, fruits, nuts, you name it. It's not so hard, it's just normal food that has always existed and has always been a part of my diet anyway.

People have eaten non-meat products since the dawn of history. For instance, meat was rare in the diets of the lower class of many societies, dairy products were only part of the diet of specific populations (e.g. Western Europe, Middle East, Masai, etc.), and the diet of some cultures has been vegetarian by principle from the start (the Jains of India). There are countless non-meat based recipes across all cultures, and preparing a meal without using meat, cheese or eggs is hardly rocket science — I often do it by accident without noticing.

So, is there really that much value in these industrial "plant-based" meat/cheese substitutes? I don't think so, but they're being marketed as if they were a great step forward to "reduce our dependence on meat" — a dependence which does not actually exist. All I see is disruptive processed-food businesses, trying to gain a market captive into their branded products thanks to the cultural Zeitgeist and it's focus on sustainability.

The fact that rice, beans, tomatoes, mushrooms, cabbages and onions are mere commodities that people can choose based on each item's quality, price, and personal tastes from any supplier, to cook with them as they please is not convenient for the processed-food business. They need people to get used to depending on their own branded products, because how else would they "substitute meat" out from their diet? This new industry is hoping to get younger environmentally-conscious generations to understand that, to be sustainable, the normal thing is to eat Beyond Meat™, or Impossible Foods™, or whatever other brand competes in the market for their attention. God forbid people eat mere stir-fried vegetables, legume stews, rice, or a myriad other dishes they could cook themselves!

The greatest value of these companies is not in their technology to make "meat-substitutes". Rather, it is in getting customers to assume that they depend on their brand.

[TheDong]

> This very much reinforces my skepticism and distrust towards this trend of branded so-called "meat-substitutes" and "plant-based cheeses" etc

And Microsoft suing MikeRoweSoft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microsoft_v._MikeRoweSoft) reinforced my skepticism in "operating systems" and "word processors".

The legal matters of a single company are largely unrelated to the industry it operates within, and I don't think this particular data-point should have any bearing on how you think of imitation meat.

The Microsoft lawsuit made me think "microsoft is dumb, I'm glad I use linux". This lawsuit, I think reasonably, makes me think "Impossible foods might be a dumb company, might have a bad legal team etc... I'm glad I eat boca burgers instead".

> People have eaten non-meat products since the dawn of history ... So, is there really that much value in these industrial "plant-based" meat/cheese substitutes? ... The greatest value of these companies is not in their technology to make "meat-substitutes". Rather, it is in getting customers to assume that they depend on their brand.

Sure, fine. You can also substitute all of that with "We didn't use to have McDonalds. McDonalds has value by raising brand recognition. We really don't need it though because people can just go home and bake their own bread"

I don't think you're making a point specific to the meat substitute industry here, nor is it really an actionable point. We do live in a society. Companies and brand names do exist. People do have different eating habits and expectations than we did 1000 years ago. What's the point?

[pxeboot]

> So, is there really that much value in these industrial "plant-based" meat/cheese substitutes?

Yes. There are many people who strongly believe "if there is no meat, it's not a meal". The only thing that is going to change their mind is something that looks and tastes like meat for a lower price.

[technobabbler]

Just ignore all their change-the-world marketing hogwash. The fake meats and cheeses are still occasionally useful, just because they're convenient and somewhat tasty, even if they don't taste like the real deal.

"Edible food-like substances" (to steal a term from Michael Pollan) have their place in a society all too obsessed with convenience and time efficiency. I don't think they should ever be a replacement for whole foods and basic staples, but they are a nice and easy way to add flavor to an otherwise bland vegan meal.

Yes, whole foods are healthier, and you can make a nutritionally balanced, delicious vegan meal out of basic grains and legumes and greens and whatnot... but it's a hell lot of work, especially because most of that stuff tastes like nothing.

For omnivores, adding meat to just about anything helps a lot with flavor, between the meat itself and the juices/fats flowing from it. But adding tofu or beans doesn't really add much flavor beyond a little bit of umami. You really have to season or sauce the hell out of every meal to make it taste good. And after a while, everything tastes kinda same-y... more nutritional yeast, more soy sauce, more curry, some generic beige protein, blah blah.

As someone who went vegan starting with whole foods yet never becoming a good enough cook, the fake stuff is in fact a really nice way to change up otherwise boring meals after a few years.

They're still made of grains and legumes and such, but the seasoning is done by Someone Else™ who's much better at it. Yeah, it's less healthy, but...

[buryat]

> meat was rare in the diets of the lower class of many societies

yeah, and the lower class was unhealthy and malnourished

[gruez]

>So, is there really that much value in these industrial "plant-based" meat/cheese substitutes? I don't think so, but they're being marketed as if they were a great step forward to "reduce our dependence on meat" — a dependence which does not actually exist.

you're vastly underestimating how much people like the taste of meat. there's a reason why countries up their meat consumption as they industrialize and get wealthier.

[MisterBastahrd]

No. They are highly processed and they generally taste like garbage. For months I was told about how great Miyoko's products were. Then I tasted some of the cheese offerings and they tasted like gritty mold. There was a Kite Hill Farms vegan blueberry yogurt that was delicious, but the peach version nearly made me lose my lunch.

[njgingrich]

Cheese and yogurt are not meat, though? I agree vegan cheese is terrible, and the faux-meat products aren't an exact replica, but they aren't bad.

There's definitely less of a push for a general adoption of vegan cheese than there is for meat alternatives.

[MisterBastahrd]

Vegan chicken tastes like a gross sponge and vegan beef patties aren't really much better. The mouthfeel is way off to the point where it isn't even an uncanny valley thing.

[armoredkitten]

I agree with you to some degree, but I don't feel like you're winning anyone over with the "I'm not X but if I were, I would just..."

I've been vegan for 6 years now, and vegetarian many years before that, and sure, usually I just cook foods that pull from cuisines that aren't heavy on meat, eggs, and dairy. Lots of great curries and stir fries and so forth to choose from.

But sometimes you just need a stupid thing that looks vaguely burger-shaped because your family/friends/coworkers are having a BBQ event and you need to bring something they can throw on the grill because you know they're not going to think about it and you don't want to have everyone poking fun with their lame jokes when you ask them to put the stuffed pepper with rice and beans on the grill for a few minutes. Sometimes you just want to blend in because Todd from accounting is fucking annoying any time he sees you eating something in the break room that's not a ribeye steak or whatever the hell he thinks his cavemen ancestors ate. And sometimes you just want sloppy, greasy comfort food that is absolutely shitty in terms of health but tastes delicious. And sometimes you're just sick of cooking for yourself AGAIN because why the hell aren't there any vegan options at the restaurants near me and goddammit I'm just going to pull those burgers out of the freezer.

I don't think you'll find too many vegetarians and vegans for whom faux meat options are an everyday thing. It depends on what options are available around you, and maybe if you have kids who won't eat anything other than chicken nuggets and hot dogs. But for the most part...it's just nice to have them there when we want them. And to the extent we can also show people "hey, there are foods that look a lot like foods you're already used to, so Todd will also leave YOU alone!" that's great too. So there's value to these products. Sure, not as much as these "disruptive" businesses are trying to imply, but....there's still value.

[Klonoar]

Meh, let’s not conflate the plant based cheese side of things with the meat substitute market.

A decent quality plant based cheese is closer in texture to hummus and is literally, mostly, ground up nuts - you can make it at home in your blender if you want to.

If you’re talking processed American cheese style… that game is probably lost the minute you choose to eat processed American cheese.

[29254588]

>It's not so hard, it's just normal food that has always existed and has always been a part of my diet anyway.

It is quite hard for those of us who cut our teeth on processed food, where teams of food scientists have tweaked the formula to create the most crave able version of every food. That's why these meat substitutes are quite appealing.

[MisterBastahrd]

Modern meat substitutes exist because texture is a huge part of eating and also people tend to go with the cuisine they're familiar with. Stocking a kitchen for the first time to cook Indian food is also a bit pricy. There are a lot of spices that you need to buy if you want to do it right, and they aren't cheap.

[selimthegrim]

They aren’t cheap because you’re not buying them at an ethnic store.

[MisterBastahrd]

Nobody is selling tiny bottles of spices at the ethnic store. They tend to sell in bulk, so you're really not saving much if you want to have the ingredients to make the dishes.

[iratewizard]

I see fake meat companies as filling a need among people trying a meatless fad diet. The primary market being young women who want to fit in with a group that has a number of obnoxiously vocal vegans.