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by zero102 1675 days ago
> we don't live in a police state...

Shocking statement that demonstrates more attempt to spin than inform.

Supposing we take the webster dictionary definition of police state: "political unit characterized by repressive governmental control of political, economic, and social life usually by an arbitrary exercise of power by police and especially secret police in place of regular operation of administrative and judicial organs of the government according to publicly known legal procedures"

Considering this effects up to 40% of the population according to the article it checks quite a few boxes:

1. Arbitrary: No precedent, first in the world to do so, with no evidence this will solve the problem in total (controlling covid completely).

2. Repressive government control: There's no argument this fits the strictest definition of repressive.

3. Exercise of power by the police: There's no statement they'll use "secret police" but certainly the enforcement will be aggressive and severe to keep 40% of the population locked down. It's not like watching one person's house. That's a lot of people.

For the record, I am not against vaccines. I am however pro bodily autonomy at any cost, for whatever reason, in any condition. The "price to pay in society" isn't to violate your bodily autonomy, and therefore the non-aggression principle, but make a personal decision to avoid or interact with people you disagree with.

It turns out that all it took to test the waters of liberty and free will was deciding what you want to, and what you dont want to, put in your body. You would even think this would be a cut and dry case considering the alleged "libertarian" leanings of HN, but to my surprise it seems many people are willing to sacrifice this fundamental liberty for ephemeral (possibly even negative) gain. We're 2 years into 15 days to flatten the curve. We have all the evidence to show this won't fix anything unless these people are locked down permanently. At that point they may as well be thrown in prisons, or camps, or whatever the dictator says to do. Democracies can't simply hold you down and inject you with chemicals but coercing these people with objectively police state style tactics is the way tyrants dressed as democratic leaders effectively accomplish the same thing.

5 comments

>We have all the evidence to show this won't fix anything unless these people are locked down permanently

At vaccination rates of 60-70% the vaccinated make 1/3rd of new infections (and giving that the vaccinated have less symptoms, one may suppose that the vaccinated rate of infection is even higher than the official 1/3rd), and thus raising the vaccination rate from 70% to 100% would decrease infection rate just 2 times at best, so even locking down unvaccinated permanently would solve nothing. And that too:

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

" A person who was fully vaccinated and then had a ‘breakthrough’ Delta infection was almost twice as likely to pass on the virus as someone who was infected with Alpha."

"Unfortunately, the vaccine’s beneficial effect on Delta transmission waned to almost negligible levels over time. In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus."

> I am however pro bodily autonomy at any cost, for whatever reason, in any condition.

Do you also oppose the assorted vaccinations that are often treated as a mandatory condition of public school attendance?

> do you also oppose the assorted vaccines

It's not nice to lump me in with anti-vaxxers but I guess that's how modern politics^W^W^W^W^W^W science is.

I don't take the stance that children have complete autonomy only because it leads to some very strange and disturbing consequences. Therefore, if the parents decide the child should not be vaccinated than I think that's a fine decision. I also think deciding your child should be vaccinated is a fine decision.

Where I draw the line is the prevention of attendance at a learning institution. Since you mentioned public school, then this should either have a distanced option (home schooling, etc) or permit the students regardless. Private institutions may do what they please. Yes, this also goes for public grant-receiving universities, community colleges, etc. Forcing people to manufacturer "exemptions" is simply an end-around to the government enforcing it's will upon people and their choices with their body. It's both immoral and unethical.

It goes even beyond that: you need proof of vaccination to attend any school in the US. In all 50 states. And it's been that way for 65 years[1].

The "pro bodily autonomy" message is smoke and mirrors, designed to put a palatable glaze on an increasingly fringe and reactionary position.

[1]: https://www.cdc.gov/phlp/docs/school-vaccinations.pdf

> The "pro bodily autonomy" message is smoke and mirrors, designed to put a palatable glaze on an increasingly fringe and reactionary position.

There is absolutely nothing fringe about wanting control of your body. This is a modern authoritarian take that is working to undo the last 50 years of increases in bodily freedom for everyone. I obviously won't win against someone espousing left-authoritarian views because neither of us will concede. But I do have some rhetorical things for you:

On "smoke and mirrors" for "an increasingly fringe, reactionary position". Do you think the same about abortion? Or is it, in your mind, okay for that form of bodily autonomy but some forms of bodily autonomy are more okay than others? Do you draw the line where "it harms people"? Who are "people"? It doesn't help you linked the CDC who has a vested interest in talking down the "bodily autonomy" argument as a public policy (public health is typically diametrically opposed to bodily autonomy because public health requires shirking the individual for the "common" good).

Arguing against bodily autonomy is binary. Either you are for bodily autonomy or you are for some level of government control over what people can and can't do with themselves. What I am willing to do to myself is my own business. Why should anyone but me decide?

Bodily autonomy is not smoke and mirrors. "Bodily autonomy" qua "I don't want to get a safe and effective vaccine" is smoke and mirrors.

The rest of the post is built on top of your initial incorrect assumption, and isn't worth a line response. Consider, instead, whether there is any meaningful sense in which getting a free and effective vaccine can be reasonably compared to reproductive rights.

> "Bodily autonomy" qua "I don't want to get a safe and effective vaccine" is smoke and mirrors.

Effective?

Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10654-021-00808-7

Vermont sees the biggest surge in COVID cases despite having the country's highest vaccination rate https://fortune.com/2021/08/12/vermont-covid-cases-vaccinati...

Iceland has been a vaccination success. Why is it seeing a coronavirus surge? https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/iceland-covid-su...

99.7% of Waterford adults fully vaccinated against Covid-19 https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40704104.html

Waterford Now Has Highest Incidence of Covid in Ireland https://waterford-news.ie/2021/10/11/waterford-now-has-highe...

76% of September Covid-19 deaths are vax breakthroughs https://vermontdailychronicle.com/2021/09/30/76-of-september...

Safe?

Orange County woman's death after 2nd dose of Moderna vaccine spurs concern from family https://abc7.com/moderna-vaccine-covid-side-effects-orange-c...

CDC says 28 blood clot cases, 3 deaths may be linked to J&J Covid vaccine https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/12/cdc-says-28-blood-clot-cases...

Belgium halts J&J COVID vaccine for under 41s after first EU death https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

COVID-19: Vaccine recipient died of heart attack, CECC says https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2021/06/13/...

'I blame myself for vaccinating wife' https://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-newdelh...

Two die in Japan after shots from suspended Moderna vaccines - Japan govt https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...

Any useful comparison of outcomes would need to consider deaths instead of case rates as we have a well-known more-transmissible variant in play now compared to the beginning of the pandemic. Most of your sources don't do that.

The linked articles regarding Iceland in fact contradict your assertion. They provide a very clear graph of cases over time vs deaths over time and it is trivial to see that during the recent spike in cases, deaths are much lower in proportion compared to earlier spikes, a clear indicator of the vaccine working well.

It is also logical that most COVID cases in places with high vaccination rates are breakthrough cases, there are simply less unvaccinated hosts for the virus to potentially infect. It does not follow that the outcome would be better with less vaccinated hosts.

Finally, you've posted links to 7 deaths and 28 complications following vaccinations. Regardless of the merits of any particular one of those articles - this is scare mongering as it completely ignores that around 5 million people have died from COVID worldwide, while around 3 billion people have been vaccinated safely. (Source- Google searches for worldwide covid deaths and worldwide covid vaccinations).

> an increasingly fringe and reactionary position.

If discussions on HN are any indication, opposition to lockdowns/vaccines is growing and anything but fringe. Risk tolerance is subjective, and the fact that someone's cost benefit analysis aligns against the extreme measures we are seeing does not imply heartlessness. This is not the plague. On the scale of deadly viruses, covid is quite close to a severe flu in terms of mortality/long term effects. It's high time that the moralists started listening to the rapidly growing body of opposition. Clearly this is a curve that we are not going to flatten without extreme measures, if ever given that this is now an endemic virus.

A stance becomes no less valid by being driven to the fringe by a population that is increasingly desperate to find a scapegoat for all of its problems.
The stance was farcical to begin with. You aren't going to get anywhere by trying to walk it out of the fringes.
Does this include home school and private schools?
This is not true but it seems to repeated very often.

Why do authorities not want the populace to know about conscientious objections?

The link I provided includes conscientious objections, and makes it abundantly clear that they are extremely limited in scope. In particular, nearly every state requires (1) a statement in writing, (2) confirmation from a healthcare and/or faith practitioner, and (3) evidence that the belief is genuine and not a transient product of merely political beliefs. Additionally, many states will not accept a "genuine" belief if it is not also the belief of the complainant's faith.
This is also not entirely true. If you have kids going to school turn the vaccine statement paper over. In many states you just sign it.

It is very odd how this misinformation is _vehemently_ stated as fact.

Not you specifically but lots of people have tried to conflate restrictions for unvaccinated people to various historical blights including, but not limited to, Jewish persecution in Nazi Germany, South African Apartheid (google the phrase "medical apartheid"), the institution of slavery in the United States and so on.

None of these apply of course for one simple reason: a black person in South Africa can't simply choose not to be black to escape Apartheid. American slaves couldn't simply choose not to be slaves.

So policies that apply to unvaccinated people aren't analogous for the simple reason that you can choose to get vaccinated in almost all cases (side note: the very few people with a valid medical exemption shouldn't be subjected to these kinds of policies IMHO).

So it's not a lack of body autonomy that's going on here. It's just that those choices come with consequences. You don't want to wear a mask? No one is holding you down and putting one on you. But you can't fly on a commercial plane either.

I too believe strongly in body autonomy, which is one reason why I fully support reproductive rights, including access to abortion. What I find particularly ironic is in the Venn diagram there's a seemingly large intersection between the unvaccinated, those who oppose restrictions on unvaccinated people and those who support restricting access to abortions. Again, not you, specifically.

It's worth adding that this isn't purely a personal choice. If it was, I don't think anyone would be upset about it. There are documented cases of contact tracers who can directly establish links between a given person spreading Covid and the deaths that result from that. What about the people who medically cannot get the vaccine? Or are immunocompromised? If you oppose the vaccine because of the extremely low risks of negative side effects, remember your choice affects other people.

It's riskier to drive in a car than to get the Covid vaccine.

The term "body autonomy" here just doesn't apply. "Consequences to personal choices" is far more accurate.

Conspicuously missing the persecution of Kulaks and Christians, among others, in the Soviet Union. Side note aside, some of those historical blights hinge on the choice of religion / ideology. You'd think that choosing the correct gods to worship is a fairly easy choice. Freedom of thought, freedom of religion? Pshaw, the State knows better what the population must think. For the common good, social harmony, the luminous future, etc, etc, etc...
>None of these apply of course for one simple reason: a black person in South Africa can't simply choose not to be black to escape Apartheid. American slaves couldn't simply choose not to be slaves.

so the chinese forcing the Uyghurs to abandon their culture is totally fine, because all they have to do is stop practicing it?

You've inferred in the opposite direction of the other poster here. They started with conflations and said they didn't apply for a reason. You are starting with the reason and applying it to a conflation.
You are right, one can not simply choose a racial identity. A more appropriate analogy would be the Inquisition, or perhaps Christian persecution in pagan Rome. Those generally left the option for heretics to renounce their beliefs.
There is religious and ideological prosecution which one could argue could be freely chosen, so it is only a counter-argument under certain definitions.
> 1. Arbitrary: No precedent, first in the world to do so, with no evidence this will solve the problem in total (controlling covid completely).

This isn't arbitrary at all, its actually extremely common to restrict the participation in society of unvaccinated people - in countries _much_ more free than the United States.

>I am however pro bodily autonomy at any cost

Me too! Have you figured out how to keep your COVID to yourself?

The CDC has recorded zero incidents of a previously infected unvaccinated person infecting anyone else. So yes.
Have those who are vaccinated figured out how to keep their now asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 to themselves?