Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by throwaway2077 1673 days ago
>Many of the Finns deported by the Lapua Movement were later caught up in Stalin's Great Purge and executed; while persecuted in Finland as communists, Stalin accused them of being "Nationalists".[9]

heh

3 comments

The white-threat was not what scared to Lenin and Stalin.

It was every other type of socialism and communism. Social democrats, Democratic socialists, Anarchists, Syndicalists, Trotskyists, ... When Soviet Union took over, they hunted and killed other socialists first. Or tried to assassinate them beforehand.

People, especially those who live in North America have no idea how big and irreconcilable the differences within the left were. Saying that someone is a socialist don't really convey that much information.

A key thing to remind people of is that the October "revolution" did not depose the Czar, but the socialist-dominated provisional government.

So many people seems to believe the Bolsheviks overthrew the Czar, but he and his family had been in house arrest for months by then.

And of course the Bolshevik purges didn't stop at the other groups, but also other factions within their own party.

True, but that socialist dominated government was filled with a lot of people that believed in an extremely orthodox theory of history that said that the capitalists should get a chance to develop society after the feudal era ended. There was also tension between "defensivists" and "defeatists" on the subject of whether WW1 was worth fighting. Notably, it was the bolsheviks that called for an immediate end to the fighting. That said, the final days of revolution were the bolsheviks trying to create facts on the ground to present to the national congress of deputies, packed with bolsheviks, as a fiat accompli as they thought it was possible to skip the capitalist phase of historical development (they were obviously right in retrospect though later mistakes doomed the experiment).

My understanding of the purges is less comprehensive (though I am taken to understand that while the program went overboard, they weren't paranoid, there were people infiltrating the party to interfere or assassinate members that later bragged about it in books) and my soviet history on what happened post 1917 is not very good. One book at a time...

> that believed in an extremely orthodox theory of history that said that the capitalists should get a chance to develop society after the feudal era ended

Well, yes, they believed that trying to force socialism without a developed economy was doomed to result in the same class stratification all over again. The Bolsheviks didn't exactly prove them wrong on that count when they effectively established the party as a new upper class, and when they were forced to enact a deeply authoritarian government to retain control.

> That said, the final days of revolution were the bolsheviks trying to create facts on the ground to present to the national congress of deputies

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to here. The Bolsheviks allowed elections to the Constituent Assembly intended to form the new government to go ahead, only to shut the assembly down when they didn't like the outcome (SR and the Mensheviks won a solid majority). It was a coup. To get their opponents to call it a revolution was the greatest PR accomplishment of the Bolsheviks.

If you're talking about the Soviet's, they only got real power because of the Bolshevik coup d'etat. They were not representative of the population, and they simply declared themselves the rightful government because it was convenient for the Bolsheviks to use them to attempt to legitimise their coup in the face of their failure to win the Constituent Assembly elections.

> My understanding of the purges is less comprehensive (though I am taken to understand that while the program went overboard, they weren't paranoid, there were people infiltrating the party to interfere or assassinate members that later bragged about it in books) and my soviet history on what happened post 1917 is not very good. One book at a time...

They arrested and/or murdered a whole host of their on previous allies over disagreements and power struggles. They may have gotten some infiltrators too, but for the most part the purges were about getting rid of rivals within the party structure with a long time history of fighting alongside them.

It's one of the most dangerous features of Lenins vanguard approach that the Bolsheviks basically trained its own organisation to see dissent as a sign of betrayal.

People in USA can get some idea if they think of how the Trumpist/QAnon bloc hates Mitt Romney despite both being technically conservatives.

That's the scale of the gulf between Soviet bolsheviks and Nordic social democrats a hundred years ago.

It happened the other way around too. My wife's related to one-such example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugen_Schauman of someone who assassinated a communist
Eugen Schauman didn't assassinate a communist.

Schauman assassinated Nikolay Bobrikov, Governor-General of Finland, general of Russian Imperial Army, servant of Russian Empire.

Schauman was Finnish Nationalist fighting Russian Empire before Russian revolution and Soviet union.

This happened in Estonia as well. Communists attempted to overthrow the Estonian government in a coup in 1924, a couple of those involved were executed, many were imprisoned in the Patarei Prison in Tallinn (later gained notoriety under Soviet occupation for holding political prisoners), and some fled to the USSR. Ironically, those who were imprisoned fared slightly better than those who fled to the USSR, since many of the latter were purged by Stalin, while the former were given amnesty in '38, on the 20th anniversary of the founding of Estonia.
Also similarly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Murdered_Poets (killing prominent members of the Jewish Anti-Facist Committee after they were no longer needed to appeal to the west during WW2 and started to write about Jewish topics the USSR was wary of like Israel and the Holocaust) and the turn against the Jewish Autonomous Oblast (and Yiddish both of which had previously been promoted) https://www.npr.org/2016/09/07/492962278/sad-and-absurd-the-... as part of the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-cosmopolitan_campaign
The new Stalin book by Kotkin goes into this episode. A totally crazy coup Stalin basically cooked up with some people and he didn't even inform the Politburo.
Vicious sectarianism is pretty frequent in history and it can infect secular movements too.

Being a "Trotskyist" or a "Titoist" was a de facto capital offence at various points of the Stalinist era. Or being labeled as such, regardless of your true status.

Heh Titoist was bad in USSR? But Tito was the best!
Stalin very publicly turned against Tito when it became obvious he couldn't be pushed around easily (wouldn't agree to extremely unfavourable trade deals, wasn't happy with the idea of joint-investments in Yugoslav industry that would've effectively turned them over to the USSR, and more). This ultimately lead to Stalin and the USSR-aligned countries denouncing him, despite originally being very close with newly socialist Yugoslavia. I think this was a really tough one for Tito - he'd spent time in Russia after the revolution, sought out Soviet help during war (without really receiving any) but for a while truly believed the USSR could've spearheaded a global socialist movement.
Stalin attempted to assassinate Tito.

Tito and Stalin didn't see eye-to-eye. There was complete split after the WWII. Soviets blockaded Yugoslavia and Yugoslavia was included in Truman's Mutual Defense Assistance Program and received military aid.

The reply letter from Tito following an assassination attempt from Stalin is one of the great political correspondences of the era: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tito%E2%80%93Stalin_split?wpro...
That link seems to not reference what you referenced?

Is the quote in this section?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito#Tito%E2%80%93S...

I think he meant this quote:

"Stop sending people to kill me. We've already captured five of them, one of them with a bomb and another with a rifle. [...] If you don't stop sending killers, I'll send one to Moscow, and I won't have to send a second."

Tito and Stalin split in a big way. When Europe split NATO-Warsaw, Yugoslavia headed off in its own direction - non-aligned.