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by EdwardDiego 1686 days ago
Planes are most efficient at high altitude. Landing necessarily involves slowly descending into thicker atmosphere - well, a good landing, anyway.
2 comments

At a slowing speed and typically at near-idle thrust. The aircraft exchanges gravitational potential energy for velocity through most of the descent.

The only high-trust portions are when reverse thrusters are engaged, typically for a few seconds following landing, or if TOGO power is invoked for an aborted approach.

You've never been on a plane that had to enter a holding pattern?
Which is effectively level flight / continued cruise, a low-power flight segment, not a high-powered one. That last would only apply if the aircraft had aborted an approach, which typically gives priority.

Again: the original claim was that both take-off and landing were high-fuel-consumption flight segments. That's untrue. Under normal conditions only take-off is, and even most deviations from a nominal approach have a fairly minor impact.

You're going to extreme lengths to avoid admitting this, and are making the issue personal to boot. Any particular reason for that?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29186605

Except it's often a high drag portion of flight, flaps and gear extended etc.

Asking if you've been on a plane that entered a holding pattern isn't "making it personal".

Please cite your sources specific to fuel consumption in landing and holding patterns.

Again: You're going to extreme lengths to avoid admitting error.

I'm trying to correct the implied claim repeated in this thread that the ideal descent can be used to model every descent.

From the ICAO manual on CDO: https://cfapp.icao.int/tools/ATMiKIT/story_content/external_...

> 1.1.4.6 With the need to ensure that CDO does not compromise safety and capacity, it may not always be possible to fly fully optimized CDO. As well, it may be necessary to stop a descent and maintain level flight for separation or sequencing purposes. The aim should be, though, to maximize CDO to the extent possible, whilst not adversely affecting safety and/or capacity.

Obviously level flight near sea level is less fuel efficient than at cruising altitude.

Likewise, descending into a significant headwind, or avoiding adverse weather will require more fuel than the optimal.

I'm not saying that a continuous descent is actually guzzling gas like crazy. There's very many smart people that have been optimising fuel usage in planes for decades.

I just want to emphasise that while the ideal descent is very fuel efficient, not every descent is ideal.

And of course, it varies significantly based on the plane.

This paper shows that interestingly, some A330 models used equivalent, or even more, fuel on approach than takeoff. Although I speculate that's more due to very efficient takeoffs rather than inefficient approaches.

https://www.mit.edu/~hamsa/pubs/ICRAT_2014_YSC_HB_final.pdf

The slowing isn't using gas - its not like they put the plane in reverse to slow it down. They're descending and trading potential energy for energy to maneuver at low altitudes. The thrust is near idle.
True, but not every approach to an airport is a nice constant vector.

Continuous descent operations are the optimal, but there's plenty of suboptimal airport approaches that require level flight at a height where fuel efficiency is far less than at cruising altitude.

Do you have any statistics to say it happens so often that airplane landings are so suboptimal that they use anywhere near climbing fuel rates and times that it matters to the overall discussion? It seems unlikely to me.
They don't.

Nor can they actually read and interpret the sources they did scrounge up:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29207783