[encryptluks2]

But people not getting vaccines are the reason we're here!!! /s

Seriously, can't we just accept reality and get back to normal. Those that want the vaccine should get it and those that don't shouldn't. I think the harm being caused by the ridiculous mandates at this point have done equal harm.

[dessant]

> Seriously, can't we just accept reality and get back to normal. Those that want the vaccine should get it and those that don't shouldn't.

No, we can't, because in most places in the world people who have nothing to do with COVID can't get into hospitals or be seen by doctors, when there is an infection wave, which at the moment is fueled by the unvaccinated. Deers won't take up hospital beds, but the unvaccinated will continue to strain health care systems.

[encryptluks2]

One explanation for hospitals filling up is that there was a major fear campaign happening in the media, and many people use the ER as a doctors office. Many doctors office at the beginning of COVID were refusing to see patients that exhibiting any cold like symptoms, so people had no choice but to go to the ER, which undoubtedly would have increased the spread.

2nd, there is a mental component to sickness that is apparent when looking at placebo effects in studies. If a patient is deathly afraid of COVID and catches COVID, they can in fact worsen their symptoms and sickness based on that alone. If media is convincing people that COVID-19 is incredibly deadly, it can become deadlier than if you are not someone who worried a lot. This is nothing new as there has always been a component of care for cancer patients that involved mental health. Watch Patch Adams to see what I'm talking about.

[taylodl]

ICUs around the world at full capacity aren't a result of the media or people having negative thoughts about Covid.

[DoingIsLearning]

> Seriously, can't we just accept reality and get back to normal.

Some countries have, some haven't been able to yet. I'm not going to start ideological arguments just want to bring you a new perspective.

The main criteria is your healthcare capacity.

In the Netherlands facemasks are only mandatory in public transit at this point. But you need a vaccine or test certificate to go to a restaurant/bar. The number of infections went up with everybody going back to the offices, but the hospitalizations and deaths are still on the low numbers.

In Germany you have regions like Saxony with extremely low numbers of vaccinated people, infection numbers also went up, but the hospitalizations are equally high, and the healthcare system is now strained with beds being repurposed for covid wards and surgeries cancelled.

My point is that _if_ we have unlimited healthcare resources and capacity then yes, theoretically, everything could go back to normal. But irrespective of where you sit ideologically our resources are finite, so our decisions have consequences.

[LurkingPenguin]

In the US, even before the pandemic, ICUs were typically run at very close to capacity. From Becker's Hospital Review[1]:

> For most level 1 trauma centers and tertiary care facilities, operating intensive care units at 80 percent to 90 percent capacity is standard — even before the COVID-19 pandemic hit.

In bad flu years, ERs are commonly overwhelmed[2] even though we obviously have vaccines that provide so-so protection:

https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patie...

I suspect that the situation in Europe is much the same.

Even if the vaccines continue to provide good protection against hospitalization, that doesn't mean that breakthrough infections won't have any impact on the healthcare system. As an anecdote, I just learned that a friend, who is a super fit collegiate athlete, just had a breakthrough infection and almost went to the ER because her symptoms were quite bad. She decided against it and the symptoms subsided within a couple of days, but if you hear about and read enough reports about breakthrough infections, it's pretty clear that it's not rare for "mild" cases to be pretty rough -- rough enough to have some people thinking about a visit to the hospital.

SARS-CoV-2 is well on its way to being endemic (it basically already is) so if we're being honest about getting back to normal, it's time for public health decision makers to be more realistic about the impact the virus will have on the healthcare system. Practically speaking, that means being prepared for high utilization and expanding capacity.

[1] https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/patient-flow/2-healthc...

[2] https://time.com/5107984/hospitals-handling-burden-flu-patie...

[topspin]

"but if you hear about and read enough reports about breakthrough infections, it's pretty clear that it's not rare for "mild" cases to be pretty rough"

That's me to a tee. Full vax by mid May, the worse fever of my life in Sept. Lasted five days and it felt like my brain was swelled.

The variants are way ahead of the vaccines. Perhaps the vaccines reduce symptoms -- I had no respiratory symptoms, for which I'm very grateful -- but not getting this is pretty much not an option; you are going to get it.

Eliminating or eradicating this is not feasible near term. I'm just astonished the official mainstream narrative is still indulging that concept.

[Clampower]

This is partially untrue.

Numbers are back up in the Netherlands, hospitals intensive care units are largely at capacity, and facemasks were reintroduced in public spaces such as all shops, doctors offices, etc last week.

[DoingIsLearning]

Indeed, fair correction on the masks being brought back.

But the intensive care units in the Netherlands are only at capacity in Brabant.

Everywhere else things are still ok and are likely to receive transfers from Brabant to balance resources.

[tromp]

There is a facemask mandate in public spaces, but enforcement is often lacking. I'd say 5-10% of shoppers don't wear masks. And no shop seems to refuse them. In my local mall, I've seen the mall manager walking around unmasked.

[hef19898]

I would agree if it wasn't for all those people that cannot get vaccinated. Young children, people with auto-immune diseases, transplant patients, certain kinds of cancer... I just guess taking one for the team went out of fashion a while ago.

[encryptluks2]

Studies have shown that deaths from COVID among children are incredibly rare, and more kids die from the flu than from COVID. People with auto-immune diseases, transplant patients and certain kinds of cancer have always been more susceptible to illness. Never have we mandated flu vaccines before, and those people would be equally as susceptible. However, I think you should be asking yourself.. if an mRNA vaccine presents auto-immune response, who is to say that isn't harming those being forced to be vaccinated? There is little to be understood about many auto-immune diseases, just look at fibromyalgia, which has often been labeled as a psychological condition and not a physical one. Many doctors still don't believe it is real, and if you use it for a disability claim it is difficult to prove.

If what you're saying is to be considered, then it must also be considered that the vaccine could have subtle side effects that may not be immediately known and later exhibit themselves as incredibly hard to diagnose and nearly impossible to detect illnesses.

[tpm]

Or those who can get the vaccine but it won't help them much.

But, as you say, homo homini lupus.

[ulfw]

Erm why do you think those can NOT get vaccinated?

Quite the opposite. They need more boosters as the vaccines don't generate enough immune response.

[mach1ne]

Honestly, there could be a malicious actor deliberately creating division among the populace. As with so many other topics, vaccination and COVID has been politicised to fanaticism.

Then again, the more probable explanation is that what we're seeing is the result of social media changing the dynamics of the society.

[saiya-jin]

> But people not getting vaccines are the reason we're here!!! /s

> Seriously, can't we just accept reality and get back to normal. Those that want the vaccine should get it and those that don't shouldn't. I think the harm being caused by the ridiculous mandates at this point have done equal harm.

People seem to forget all those folks who can't get their surgeries, early cancer screening, undiagnosed chest pain etc. Those are deaths and suffering that won't ever appear in official covid mortality stats but they are out there, everywhere. During Spring 2021 in India outbreak alone, officially there was 500k deaths, but heightened mortality for that period was more like 5 millions (that covers undetected covid and everything else).

A more general rant - it pains me to no end see how covid crisis brutally highlighted the fact that large part of population is utterly irrational, emotional, believes all kinds of lies very easily and is, is selfish, arrogant, self-centered, and for the lack of better word, plain dumb. You can't win with dumb. We saw it earlier with elections, we saw it on football stadiums etc. but this is worse. And I don't see a way out.

[gspr]

No. The ones that don't want the vaccine (and don't have a real medical reason not to) have to take the goddamn vaccine. Their beliefs are objectively wrong, and if they want to live in society, they have to do their part.

Bodily autonomy is very important to me, but it does not mean that you are allowed to cause real harm to others' bodies.

The antivaxxers have nothing. They're ridiculous morons who try to undermine society. Meet fire with fire, marginalize these idiots if they refuse to get their shit together.

[LurkingPenguin]

What do you say to people who eagerly took the initial 2-dose vaccine series but aren't interested in perpetual boosters every 6 months? Are they antivaxxers? Do they need to be marginalized?

The neutralizing antibodies generated after vaccination wane very quickly and the vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission. There are even breakthrough cases happening in people who are just 2-3 months out from their second dose.

I flew halfway around the world to get vaccinated and when I was in the US earlier this year, observed that the people who were most confident and even cavalier about forgoing preventative measures like mask wearing and social distancing were people who were fully vaccinated.

If vaccinated people who harbor objectively wrong beliefs about what the vaccines actually do engage in behavior that causes "real harm to other's bodies", do they need fire and brimstone too?

[gspr]

> What do you say to people who eagerly took the initial 2-dose vaccine series but aren't interested in perpetual boosters every 6 months? Are they antivaxxers? Do they need to be marginalized?

I don't know. It's difficult. So let's focus on the easy one: the idiots who won't get their first dose.

> The neutralizing antibodies generated after vaccination wane very quickly and the vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission. There are even breakthrough cases happening in people who are just 2-3 months out from their second dose.

Of course there are breakthrough cases. The vaccines aren't 100% effective. That's not the point.