[type_enthusiast]

> the people of Iran can end these sanctions at any time

Sorry to bite on this off-topic thing... but, _how_? Overthrowing their government? I guess that would be technically true, but "at any time" seems like a weird phrase to use for that.

[908B64B197]

Yes. Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring. Democracy is never given, it is earned.

[mschuster91]

> Just look at Libya during the Arab Spring.

Iran at least has some sort of functioning government entity (which I, to be clear, absolutely despise), Libya collapsed completely as a result of Ghaddafi's (well deserved) downfall and it will likely be a hotbed of Islamist terrorism and instability for decades to come. I don't see any nation or block of nations willing to step up and do nation rebuilding in once-beautiful Libya outside of the EU financing terrorists aka the so-called "coast guard" to torture migrants - what makes you think any kind of revolution in Iran would be assisted by anyone?

The US even abandoned the Kurds ffs.

[toyg]

The Iranian system also has some democratic legitimacy. Yes, the religious authority is supreme, but it's not as overtly tyrannical as the average dictatorial regimes: the religious ruler is himself elected by an assembly (similarly to what happens with the Catholic Pope), and the secular executive branch is elected (although the religious element can pre-emptively stop pesky candidates from running altogether).

There is a good chunk of Iranian society that genuinely thinks their system is good, and it keeps the country somewhat stable in a region where such condition is not particularly common. Telling them to throw it all away by pointing at Libya is basically a cruel joke.

[mehrdada]

This characterization is ridiculous. Following the form does not make you “somewhat democratic,” nor does calling oneself Democratic People’s Republic.

In addition, “the secular executive branch” comment is flat out wrong. The executive branch and candidates for presidency are explicitly obligated to believe and follow Islamic and Sharia laws.

[toyg]

> Following the form does not make you “somewhat democratic,”

In practice, there have been elected presidents that the religious element did not really like. They did not last, and were sabotaged at every turn, but they existed. Iran is a big country and it contains a number of different power-centres, unlike, for example, North Korea.

> In addition, “the secular executive branch” comment is flat out wrong.

Uh, no it isn't:

>> the religious element can pre-emptively stop pesky candidates from running altogether

Whether this is achieved by claiming they are unbelievers or corrupt, is irrelevant. Candidates can (and do) get purged before they get a chance, but the latter part of the process is fairly democratic (which is why occasionally the "wrong" candidates do win). One of the reasons for the increasingly low turnout in recent years is precisely that purges are getting more and more indiscriminate; Iranians are not all stupid, and won't engage when they think the process is meaningless. The "secular" qualifier is there because, in practice, that's what it is - a government that cares about economy, army, police, and administration.

Demonising everything is a recipe for being ignored, you should try understanding other points of view when you're trying to persuade.

[mehrdada]

> Uh, no it isn't

You are absolutely incorrect[1]. There are no ifs and buts. They absolutely positively require the candidate to assert they'd abide by Islamic law--there is not even a pretense of secularism. Which Islamic Republic lobby group did you get your propaganda from? I lived there for 20 years.

If you think you know better, please cite a reference to your egregious claims. Even Khamenei himself does not make some of the claims you are making.

[1]: https://rc.majlis.ir/fa/content/iran_constitution

[SuoDuanDao]

>The executive branch and candidates for presidency are explicitly obligated to believe and follow Islamic and Sharia laws.

Oh come one. Is the US not a democracy because the executive branch and candidates for presidency are explicity obligated to believe and follow the constitution?

As a Canadian I've personally benefited from the US hegemony and if I had to pick a least-rapacious global hegemon historically you'd be in the running. But I see comments like this and I can't help but feel like the US might have 'Earned' the same kind of 'Democracy' its three-letter boys brought Libya.

[mschuster91]

> I can't help but feel like the US might have 'Earned' the same kind of 'Democracy' its three-letter boys brought Libya.

Libya was especially an affair of France, Italy (the former colonial power) and the UK.

If you ask me, the Italians are the reason why Ghaddafi was outright executed - there were numerous dirty deals done between Italy and Ghaddafi's Libya, mostly to have Ghaddafi do the dirty work for the EU in keeping migrants away.

[mehrdada]

> Is the US not a democracy because the executive branch and candidates for presidency are explicity obligated to believe and follow the constitution?

Did you just equate "following the US constitution" to "following Sharia law"?

[908B64B197]

> There is a good chunk of Iranian society that genuinely thinks their system is good, and it keeps the country somewhat stable in a region where such condition is not particularly common.

That explains the massive exodus of talent, minds and people straight out of the country minutes after the revolution.

[toyg]

... which was 40 years ago. Quite a few people were born since then, and still live there. Obviously it's not a paradise, but it's not comparable with the likes of North Korea, and these days it's not that incredibly different from other supposedly-good countries in the region.

[908B64B197]

> Quite a few people were born since then, and still live there

And if you go to any western university campus, you'll meet many of them, born after the revolution, who worked hard to make it to the west and who are trying to sponsor their families to join them.

The opposite (westerners trying to do the same in Iran) is virtually unheard of.

[kmeisthax]

Libya is actually a terrible example of this. If I recall correctly, right after the Arab Spring, their country erupted into civil war, twice, and the current ceasefire is barely a year old. The reason for this is not because they chose civil war, but because Libya and many other poor countries are stuck in a local minima of dictatorship and sectarianism.

Why? This chart should be illustrative: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libya#/media/File:Libya_Produc...

- Dinosaur juice that we took out of the ground

- Dinosaur farts that we took out of the ground

- Dinosaur juice that we took out of the ground and then cooked

- Shiny metal that we took out of the ground

In other words, all industries that, critically, do not require the people to operate. Libya is the poster child for the resource curse. In poor countries, democracy is a dangerous boondoggle that squanders the wealth of the country, and any country with an economy shaped like this that tries democracy will be swiftly punished for their obvious flaunting of basic economics. Likewise, all of the other things you see in these kinds of countries - sectarian violence, religious and ethnonationalist conflict, and so on - are all merely part and parcel of being poor.[0]

Taking this back to Iran... the country is born out of geopolitical praxis, not a resource curse. The US tried to utterly fuck over Iran and turn it into Libya, in the name of fighting the Soviets. So at least part of the current hostility towards the US is still borne out of actual popular support. Yes, some Iranians would like to just enjoy a cosmopolitan software developer lifestyle, but those people are fewer in number compared to the people who want nothing to do with a country that has hypocritically denied it the right to self-determination. Maybe that will change, and people on both sides will forget long enough for us to normalize trade relations. But that's not a simple matter of uninstalling and reinstalling governments like they were device drivers. Plenty of Iranians still hate the US, and plenty of Americans do, too.

[0] This is also why a lot of Donald Trump voters bought into a lot of far-right racist bullshit, as well as why many poor countries see regular genocides. Because that's exactly what you promise poor people. It's far easier to make you richer than a race or religion you don't like, than to make you richer overall.

[shabazahmed]

I wouldn't say never. ex Bhutanese Democracy[1] was given by the monarchs though lot of population wanted the monarch to continue. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhutanese_democracy

[hni]

Never given; but taken, sometimes.

[_pmf_]

Is this satire?