[tomcooks]

Very nice, these fake works upset me as well.

As a foreigner I do not understand how those made up nonsensical words (common in coffee, car model names, appliances, websites), or that stereotypical "mamma mia i speak-a english-a language" intonation aren't considered on par with making fun of the Asian stereotypical pronunciation or making up words like "Ching Chong Pling Plong" to sell something.

Any native American can help me understand the difference between making fun of Asians/Blacks/other groups and italo-americans?

[uulu]

This is a rabbit hole. You probably didn't mean it this way, but:

> Any native American can help me understand the difference between making fun of Asians/Blacks/other groups and italo-americans?

You know what "native american" means in (American) English, don't you?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_Americans_in_the_United...

[mc32]

It’s just a phrase that has two meanings and is understood with context. It’s like saying we sanctioned Jesse for his behavior.

[uulu]

I understand this, but given the _context_ of the question it might be (deliberately) misunderstood.

[tomcooks]

That is not a rabbit hole, it's child's play.

To use your own words: I wrote native American and not Native American, didn't I? Do you know what "native" with a lowercase lettee means, don't you?

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/native

As a side note, an unrequested advice: As you said, you probably didn't mean it this way but you sound detestable.

Cheers and thank you.

[uulu]

Sorry. I did not mean to offend you, but your response clearly show that I did it somehow. Sorry again for any intended or unintended meaning that my comment could have conveyed to you.

[kop316]

To offer a counter perspective (American here!), I did not see it as poking fun at Italians or Italian language. I saw it poking fun at coffee stores in America, as some have a tendency to make some sort of drink and give it have a name that sounds similar to the ones in the website.

[RaSoJo]

If it makes you feel any better, the Italians enjoy making fun of American lingo as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisencolinensinainciusol

[theCodeStig]

Yeps. I love this.

[derekzhouzhen]

In China there is a proverb:

> Don't treat others in the ways you don't want to be treated.

How others treat us is irrelevant to how we should behave. There are many craps we get but it is not a excuse to unload the same craps back.

[dfxm12]

In my lifetime, I've witnessed first hand a lot of racism, and just outright violence towards Asians and Blacks, including institutional racism. I believe that's the difference.

Italian Americans don't have to worry about this sort of institutional racism (at least not in generations), so it's easier to assume these jokes are honest attempts at humor vs bigotry.

[mc32]

I’ve been to Mexico. Sometimes people there try to mimic your accent and poke fun at how you sunburn so easily.

Back in the US if you were to do similar to a Mexican, you’d be accused of racism for mimicking their accent or making fun of some part of their physiology they cannot change.

[toxik]

Punching up versus kicking down. They're different things.

[mc32]

That’s bullshit. They don’t know my status nor you know if they are the seaside peddlers or the upper class Mexicans.

[toxik]

It’s a hard sell to say you feel like your heritage was cause for grief when you come from a superpower, and the richest country in the world. You may individually be not well off, but we’re talking about group properties.

[mc32]

Oh, now it’s about group power and not individuals?

See, people keep on redefining things. So a Mexican-American being from a “super power” what, they can be made fun of by white Mexicans because?

What about Chinese from China, now that they are super power, does everyone get to pile on any individual because as a group they are powerful (based on PPP they are on par or surpassed us).

It all bullshit. If it’s not for me or it’s not right for them, then it’s not right for anyone.

[_v7gu]

Now that's just racism on another scale: you're saying Mexicans are below Americans?

[Spivak]

Yes. Mexicans have not installed institutions that create and perpetuate widespread discrimination, prejudice, and harm to Americans but the opposite is true.

Punching up or down isn't about the relative superiority or inferiority of groups, it's about the human made power dynamics that exist between them.

[mc32]

This is weird, you're saying the only racism is institutional racism (tho you must recall the motto Mexico is for Mexicans' as well as a history of slavery in Mexico) that attitude used to keep out legal foreigners (LatAm and NAm) from some types of jobs.

Never the less, it's ridiculous to think that a Mexican cannot be racist against an American or a Honduran or whatever.

Mexico imported slaves from Africa and that wasn't abolished till the 1830s though there was an exception that allowed importation of slaves from Texas.

[batch12]

It is either racist or it isn't. The now-popular punching direction catch phrase is just a way of excusing hypocrisy.

[vtyzsc]

Many Hollywood movies with a plot that clearly takes place 5 decades after WWII have evil German characters named Fritz and Hans. Racism? You can certainly still experience anti-German sentiments as a 20 year old abroad right now.

I don't mind these movies at all, but there do seem to be double standards.

[dfxm12]

Die Hard is not the same thing to German Americans as is a rise in violence against Asian Americans [0] or institutional racism against Blacks for their respective groups.

There doesn't seem to be a double standard.

0 - https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/04/21/one-third-o...

[kevinmgranger]

Italians aren't discriminated against en masse in the US, so poking fun at the language is seen as "punching down".

[joker99]

At least anymore. There used to be a time when discrimination against Italian Americans was quite the norm

See: https://www.loc.gov/classroom-materials/immigration/italian/...

[mc32]

Punching up and punching down are idiotic concepts. Either something is wrong or it isn’t wrong.

This concept is basically a get out of jail free card people can use when they cross certain lines that is based on made up pretense that there exists a universal scale of power and weakness.

It’s a manipulative tool that some people thought up to control conversation.

[r-zip]

I think you mean punching up, or "isn't seen as punching down."

[kevinmgranger]

Whoops, meant isn't. Too late to edit.

[JohnWhigham]

Italians aren't discriminated against en masse

Neither are Asian Americans? Despite what the media wants you to believe

[ticviking]

The simple answer is that any group that is considered to be “white” whatever their level of integration is fair game. I’m not sure it’s an accurate answer or why it maps to my experience but, you don’t need to look very hard to find similar stereotypes of Irish, Russians and other distinctive European ethnicities.

[Spivak]

The difference is always "laughing at you" vs "with you." It's not that certain groups are "fair game" but that among equals poking fun has a default interpretation of "busting a friend's chops." Anyone can absolutely cross the line when making fun of white people.

If you're non-white and making fun of white people it can also be light mockery of your oppressors depending on the context. It has "court jester making fun of the king" energy.

Why it's almost always not kosher for white people to make fun of non-whites is because the default interpretation of jokes among non-equals is bullying and mockery. It can be done but it has to be done with extreme care.

The topical example of jokes among more complicated non-equals going extremely poorly is Chappelle's treatment of the trans community. It's not that trans folks are "off limits", you can find plenty of comedians and people on social media that make tasteful jokes at the expense of trans folks, but Chappelle's jokes just came off mean and weren't things that any trans person would react like, "haha that's so true!"

[theCodeStig]

You’re on point, there is no difference.