[geoduck14]

>I think the reality is that this kind of change can't originate from the in-the-trenches folks at the bottom of totem pole.

I'm a manager. Please. PLEASE don't believe this. In-the-trenches folks ARE powerful. Really. I promise. I can't implement change if YOU don't do it. I don't know what sucks if YOU don't tell me.

I NEED you to help me make things better.

[JohnBooty]

Hiring Rails devs? I'll work for you!

Seriously, though: I firmly believe that most managers do think and act like you do.

(I've been in lead and/or management-lite roles myself; I don't view management as some weird or evil "other")

But, I think it only works if that sort of change is valued all the way up the org chart and folks at each level are empowered, incentivized, and motivated to address the pain points of the folks below.

If the org chart is more than N levels deep, then I think this becomes practically impossible. Managers feel the pain of their direct reports deeply and acutely and absolutely want to make things better: after all, it is in their best interests as well. But a manager won't feel or even understand the challenges of folks N levels below; it's probably not even practical to expect this.

(I'll let others argue over the exact value of N above)

That's why I don't think the situation can be resolved without some sort of dedicated resources allocated to developer experience. The most obvious answer (for engineering orgs big enough to support it) would be dedicated developer experience teams. For teams that lack the headcount to dedicate engineers to it full time, an alternate solution could be dedicated chunks of time -- "hackathon Fridays", etc.

[nyulmalac]

I‘m working in a strongly hierarchical org, whit very high N number. What shocking me and blocked good ideas or solutions is that: The persons in charge, empowered to make decisions are so far from reality. And the outcome of their decisions has no effect on their lives… And not because they are evil, just unable to understand the problem. (Once some guy asked, why we put bugs in the code…) Now I fight to change this doing a half management half coder job. But thats hard, I am close to total burnout…

[JohnBooty]

    I‘m working in a strongly hierarchical org, 
    whit very high N number

    The persons in charge, empowered to make 
    decisions are so far from reality

Yeah. I've seen it happen when managers are literally just a level or two up and don't come from an engineering background.

I think it's inevitable, honestly. I think it's fundamentally impossible for management to really understand or respond to in-the-trenches stuff. That's like tasking the mayor of a large city with sweeping the streets or physically fighting crime themselves, in person. They literally cannot spend enough hours in the shoes of the folks under them to understand that stuff.

And, that's fine. Management just needs to have the humility to understand that, and has to empower people/groups that do have their boots on the ground to fix those problems.

It's not unique to this industry, although I do think the newness and explosive growth of our industry may make it particularly prone to this kind of thing.

[nyulmalac]

I see your point. In my BigCo I don’t see real empowering. I agree with you this is a key factor.

My dilemma should I leave or not? Is it better or worse in other place? My helplessness is, I reached limits where I know I can‘t improve the situation anymore. But I see a general pattern and so I am pessimistic to find a better place…

[_y5hn]

Please don't invalidate other people's experiences.

[mental1896]

that's a two-way street

[_y5hn]

Expect to be wrong when speaking on other people's behalf against their interests.

If you however, do something about it, that counts for something. Not just asking others to do your job for you, without even asking them.