[Bender]

We bypass natural selection all the time. Some people are more vulnerable to certain pathogens. We give them medicine or vaccines to mitigate mortality. Natural selection would have us let nature take its course. Some people have religious beliefs that in fact route people towards nature or God determining mortality rather than medicine.

[anonporridge]

True, and there's nothing wrong with that. I think it's right and good to alleviate suffering where we can.

But we still stand to suffer as a civilization if the average quality of individuals doesn't improve, or even declines. Especially as the challenges we are capable of facing become more complex and challenging. Idiocracy comes to mind.

Then again, maybe our future is one where we develop sentient AIs that can independently keep civilization running, while humans can be left to degrade into a kind of pet that doesn't do any work and exists only for the benefit and good will of the AI.

[NaNDude]

natural selection is a cultural myth (like everything talking about an undefined "nature"), may be you'r thinking about evolution theory which is driven by reproduction success, but we already bypass it, living far beyond our fertility time :)

[anonporridge]

Can you explain what you mean by "natural selection is a cultural myth"?

It is possible that we can "naturally" evolve to live far beyond our individual fertility, and humans did live long before civilization. Complex species like humans require a ton of knowledge and skill training. Old and experienced people can be incredibly valuable to a tribe if they can teach and care for the young, even if they can no longer reproduce themselves. It's not enough to just squirt out offspring. You need to invest in them so they can become successful enough to squirt out their own.

There are other examples like this. Like why various types of animals having warning calls for predators. These things don't make sense for an individual to develop, because the warning call actually draws the predator's attention to the individual making it. The best thing for the individual to do is stay quiet and hide. But the call increases the fitness of the individual's kin, so the trait survives.

Homosexuality might be another instance of this, the "gay uncle" theory. Similar to the reason we live long after fertility, a tribe with a minority of young non reproducing members can be helpful for taking care of and training the children.

It's called kin selection, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kin_selection

[NaNDude]

> It is possible that we can "naturally" evolve

there is no doubt on that, we're evolving, we're even able to trace some minor genetic evolutions over the 7k last years. but the cultural myth of "natural selection" or "naturally" evolving is in the question : what is "natural" and by extension, what is'nt ? kin evolution or social behaviors always end up as reproduction success, and the failure to do so, "naturally" or "artificially" end up in extinction, that's all. there is nothing specifically "natural" or "artificial" here. when talking about genetics the involved time scales badly fit cultural consideration like thoses. it is not less "natural" to gain reproductive success by genetic intervention than without, unless you are able to explain what is this "nature". or in other words : there is nothing to bypass unless you'r able to say/describe/explain what :)

[anonporridge]

Oh. Are you just saying that everything we do is natural? That the idea that we are somehow separate from nature is bullshit?

[NaNDude]

as long as "nature", being highly polysemic, is'nt defined, yes.

[LinuxBender]

Agreed, though I intentionally conflate the two concepts as one. That is just my own personal view of evolution and natural selection. I for one would like to do an experiment where we pass a law allowing the removal of all warning signs, warning labels and guard rails both literal and visual.

[heavyset_go]

We're still subject to natural selection and that's all still technically natural selection. The selection pressures have just changed.