[chiefalchemist]

For the record...the issues you mention were initiated by former print designers, turned wannabe web designers.

No one should underestimate the percentage of "web designers" who don't know the difference between a span and a div, or the damage that level of ignorance is doing.

FFS, I still see PSDs (which is a silly format for web design) - already approved by clients - with small (read: difficult to read) font sizes, in a color that's low contrast with the background color (read: even more difficult to read).

Don't blame the developers some of this do push back. Unfortunately, "the creatives" too often have more juice.

[ryandrake]

> Don't blame the developers some of this do push back. Unfortunately, "the creatives" too often have more juice.

It's so bizarre how developers are simultaneously considered 1. powerful in the job market, highly in-demand, with companies competing for talent, and 2. totally powerless to push back against dark patterns, privacy invasions, and poor product or design choices.

I mean has anyone even tried saying "You know what, I'm not going to implement that. I'm a professional, too, and in my judgment it's [ridiculous | unethical | poorly thought out | whatever]. We need to negotiate it down to something better."

Not going after you in particular, but I see this "developer power" dichotomy all the time on HN and it's kind of hard to understand.

[agent327]

There is an implicit assumption here that developers have a better understanding of these issues than the rest of the people involved. My experience is that many developers are clueless about UX in general.

Source: I'm a developer, and I work with other developers. On my team I'm the only person who has studied UX design, which resulted in me getting considerable praise for the quality and useability of my user interfaces. At the same time, I have seen my colleagues design interfaces by literally adding controls to a window in the order they implemented the features, starting in the top-left, and moving slowly down the page in a row by row fashion. Well, that's also a strategy...

The real problem is that most designers just like drawing pretty pictures, and are clueless about UX as well. Pushing that to developers is one option, but it's really a separate skillset.

[geraldwhen]

That’s a great way to not get raised or promoted. The text will be grey on grey. We will intentionally break accessibility because reasons.

I’m not paid to care. Caring actually causes problems.

[WildGreenLeave]

I don't specifically want to include origin in this discussion, but I have never experienced this myself. And I think it might have to do with my (Dutch) culture, or that I am freelance and my clients trust me to do the right thing.

When one of my clients think of something which doesn't work for whatever reason they want me to say no to them. And it doesn't hurt our professional relationship, I will explain them why it is a dumb idea (not in those words of course :-)) and we figure something out that does work properly. They appreciate me being direct and selling them no and they request it themselves.

So while I can understand your comment and I think that it is fair in plenty of situations, it isn't always.

[chiefalchemist]

1 and 2 are one in the same. The revolving door feeds itself.

It's not like the recruiter and/or hiring company are going to tell you up front "Yeah, the design team is clueless." True story: you only find that out after the fact. Pushing back is possible, and it does happen, trust me ;) But it either happens too late, management is clueless, or both.

So you update your CV in search of green pastures. That in turn creates an opening. Management won't admit it's them. The narrative is: we need better talent and that means paying more.

And so on.

[beebeepka]

I feel like such arguments are rarely made in good faith due to mostly elitist attitudes but I'll give it a try.

It's one thing to push against dark patterns, and completely another to constantly fight your design teams. Do you honestly think the developer is making all these design decisions? Lol

[chiefalchemist]

All these BAD design decision ;)

[6510]

developers are powerful in the job market, highly in-demand, with companies competing for talent.

But you get to pick one and then you are married and she makes all the decisions.