[aazaa]

> I wish I had a happier note to end this on, but honestly, my biggest takeaway from the whole experience is that maybe some puzzles just can’t be solved. We can try to attribute Jack’s problems to intrinsic biological/psychological issues (social phobia, migraines, etc.) or to environmental causes (super high rate of heroin use and OD in the community), but both sides seem fundamentally lacking in explanatory power. The vast majority of socially anxious people don’t resort to heroin, and despite the problems of these small towns, they are by no means among the worst places to live in America, let alone the world.

Earlier on, the author does speculate about what drove Jack:

> To put it another way, Jack was painfully aware that his future options were, “be a complete loser,” or “be a complete loser who feels really really good for a few hours every day.” He chose the latter.

What's striking about this is how it's possible to live this way without drugs. A brain-numbing job eight hours a day and a life-saving hobby for four. A toxic-family life but wonderful community.

It almost sounds like Tennis could have been this outlet:

> One time when Jack was in middle school, he walked off the tennis court after a well-played match, and his mother asked him how he felt. Jack said something like, “when I’m out there, it’s so nice… it’s like the rest of the world goes away and I don’t have any problems.”

[colinmhayes]

I'm not sure you understand how good heroin feels. Nothing comes close, especially not Tennis or a wonderful community.

I tried heroin once, and I regret it every day, because I am 100% positive that I will never again be as happy as I was that day. If I didn't have what is effectively a dream job I'm sure that I'd be a heroin addict.

[ioseph]

That was certainly not my experience, it was an intense physical pleasure but ultimately devoid of mental depth. Having tried most drugs I really think the whole addicted after one dose is bullshit and it's far more about your social economic circumstances.

It's much more tempting to seek out another hit if you have nothing better to do that day.

[arp242]

If I get drunk I become happy and will hug my friends and tell them how much I love and appreciate them. Others become aggressive and start picking fights with random people, or beat up their wives, girlfriends, etc. I don't especially enjoy being drunk though; it's alright once in a while, but there's loads of other activities that are on equal footing as far as I'm concerned.

I tried to smoke weed a few times. I didn't just dislike it but downright hated it every single time. I tried a few other drugs, and responses varied from "I don't really like this" to "meh, so this is it, is it?" Never tried heroin, so I can't speak to that specifically.

Point being: individual responses to drugs vary greatly. I wouldn't say I'm "immune" to becoming an addict, but it'll sure take a lot more than for some other people.

[bsder]

I think it's highly variable.

Some people love opiates. Personally, I hate the feel of opiates. My brain feels like it's encased in concrete. This is not a good feeling to me.

I consider myself fortunate that I don't like the feel of opiates as it means that I didn't become addicted to them from the times I needed them medically.

I will, however, point out that musicians almost universally warn other musicians not to do heroin even once. Musicians aren't exactly straight-laced, and, if they're warning you about something, you probably ought to listen.

[karlmdavis]

This seems to rather callously disregard the parent commenter’s lived experience. Perhaps, just maybe, not everyone is like you; it might be different for different people? Just a thought.

[ioseph]

That was certainly not my intention, I was trying to say that the idea that these substances will make anyone a helpless addict if they try them once is misleading and completely ignores the social context around addiction.

[newby]

I agree with you that social context matters but I want to provide one data point on how psychological setting of that person matter too.

I am an anxious person prone to depression. In one especially bad period of my life I was prescribed Lexaurin (anxiolytic used to handle panic attacks). Taking that was a shocking experience - it made me feel calm, optimistic... and maybe for the first time in my life it made me aware of the ever-present baseline of anxiety that I was living with, like always. Lexaurin made me feel not anxious at all and it felt awesome. I kept asking myself - is that how other people feel all the time? I would give anything to live like that. If I had free access to it all the time, it would be really hard to resist the temptation not to use it. At the same time I can imagine that for many people - like you maybe? - taking Lexaurin would do absolutely nothing, because they live on that anxiety-free baseline their normal lives.

[robbiep]

Addiction and the addictive ness of drugs is a multi factorial gradient. It requires the right psychosocial conditions, the right environment, and the right drug, and a person who might become a heroin addiction one day may not be so at a different point in their life.

Roughly 1-2% of people who try heroin once are done forever; many many try once or twice and aren’t. For cigarettes the rate is about 20-30% who become addicted

[ufmace]

It seems pretty clear that there's at least some level of genetic component to addiction. It seems likely that this is part of it. Some people, like you I suppose, really genuinely think it's not that big of a deal. Some people, presumably like the grandparent of this thread or the subject of the article, think it's by far the most amazing thing they'll ever experience in their life. Why's that so hard to believe?

It seems pretty likely to me that at least some people really will inevitably go down that road from one dose. Maybe not as many as the hardcore Drug Warriors would like us to think, but at least a few. It's an odd blind spot for the hardcore Libertarians - some people just aren't physically capable of coping with it, and no amount of willpower on their parts will change that.

[nwienert]

It’s adding context. I agree with the reply completely, opiates are far from being an outlier in “amazing experiences” for me.

[pgwhalen]

I see no disregarding, it’s simply another lived experience. The whole point of the comment is that it is different for different people.

[jt_thurs_82]

> That was certainly not my experience

[gwbas1c]

> I really think the whole addicted after one dose is bullshit

When I was ~12 I got nitrous in the dentist's chair.

I remember the thought going through my head: Wow, this is really cool.

However, I didn't have ready access to nitrous! If my parents had a whipped cream maker, would I have started huffing whip-its? Maybe, but at least they aren't addictive. It's not like I would have gone into withdrawl after going through a box.

I think the bigger issue is the physical dependency that opiates have. Once the drug is no longer the "new toy," but the physical dependency is there, it's much harder to stop once the novelty is gone.

[evilos]

This is the scariest thing about heroin IMO. It's basically game over, you've ruined the game of life by using a cheat code and the rest of the game will feel hollow and pointless.

[brailsafe]

You don't need heroin to reveal this to you. That's in part why burnout is a thing. Just try really hard to do what you think is right, and then be shown that what you put your energy into is basically worthless. Then you start thinking about what ultimate prospects every hypothetical financial reward could result in, and it's pretty bleak out there. Then once you're ready to get back into it after being fired, because you're running out of money, you realize that it takes 4x the effort to do 1x the work for 0.25x the spiritual reward that initially drove you to get into it, and so you turn to heroin or start a farm.

[evilos]

That's pretty specific, you alright?

[brailsafe]

I'm working on it ;) No heroin here thankfully

[evilos]

Glad to hear it.

[exikyut]

I've been pondering for a while if being at certain points on the bathtub curve of learning/integrating new things (the disorientation phase, the sense of no progress) may create exponential sensitivity to emotional stress (like burnout) and make it feel 100x worse. Reading this, now I'm wondering if maybe a similar bathtub curve effect (specifically the "I can't see the light at the end of the tunnel" part) associated with the open-ended constant mental engagement of looking for work precipitates a similar sort of sensitivity to ROI outcomes (with obvious preferences toward lots of positivity).

If this is the case, then as direct as it is to say - these mechanisms are just that, mental mechanisms, and it just happens that when "low point of bathtub curve" bounces off of "really badly timed negative ROI event" bounce off of each other, it's like the result is amplified almost beyond reason. Long-term the signal value ("this will kill your spirit") is absolutely true, but in the immediate (ultra-short) term, compartmentalizing and ignoring it may be both safe and actively helpful. (Standard internet advice disclaimer applies)

TL;DR: Good luck, and may circumstances and equilibrium materially improve and solidify.

[refurb]

Why is it scary? Heroin isn’t unique in this aspect.

I had a friend tell me “when I had the first drink ever my first thought was ‘I want to feel like this the rest of my life’”. He was sucked in right away and struggled for years to break that hold.

Plenty of people feel that way and practically kill themselves with alcohol, opioids, cocaine and even food.

And plenty of people take opioids equivalent to heroin and say “i felt terrible, nauseous and dizzy, I don’t get it”.

I cant find the source but there was a DEA (?) report a long time ago that noted “80%+ of cocaine users use it less than 5 times per year”.

When drug use gets pushed into the shadows the only examples you see are the ones where it spirals out of control.

[damontal]

Say you use heroin or have used it in the past. Now you have to go in for some kind of surgery. Guess what? The opiate pain meds won't work for you! I've seen it first hand. It's awful. Hospitals are only allowed to give so much and if you're a user or were a user, the amount they give you won't touch your pain.

Guy who used heroin shattered his hand in a fall off a roof. Had pins put in. When he came around after surgery they had to call the police he was so out of control because his pain couldn't be managed.

[goatsi]

Opioid tolerance will absolutely decline if you stop using. it's actually a significant cause of death. People will quit (or go without due to jail, etc) and then relapse with the same dose they has used before and have a fatal overdose.

[exikyut]

Morbid but curious question: when tolerance declines, does a de-rated dose (say, 100% of the body's safe mechanical limit) produce the same mental effect as the previous, now way higher dose would? IOW, does the tolerance affect the mental response as well?

(NB. Have integrated the understanding that pushing The Button™ is a generally bad idea. The above is purely intellectual curiosity.)

[kyleee]

Do you really struggle to see why that's scary?

[refurb]

I struggle to see why heroin is uniquely scary.

[evilos]

Because it has such a strong effect for most people compared to food, sex, alcohol, etc.

Obviously I don't know how strong (and I really really hope I never know, unless I'm on my death bed etc) but by all accounts it is overwhelming. Everything is toxic at the right dosage, and heroin is pure toxic pleasure.

[gwbas1c]

Because heroin (and similar opiates) are one of the hardest addictions to quit.

It's also easier to accidentally OD on heroin compared to cocaine or alcohol.

[watwut]

I really don't think alcohol causes such a strong reaction in most people. It is pleasant, but not to that extreme.

Also, people dont get addicted to alcohol that fast. It takes a lot more usage to develop physical dependency.

[refurb]

A physical dependency is not a requirement nor is it necessarily that strong of a motivator for continued use. Psychological dependency is often the harder thing to break. Addiction is defined by continued, compulsive use despite negative consequences in one's life.

And sure, most people don't say "I want to drink forever" when they have their first drink. But that's my point, most people don't say that when they get opioids - remember they are very widely used in medicine. Some small fraction of users actually spiral into a deep addiction.

Now, one could argue the percent that develop a problem is larger than with alcohol - that might be true. That said, it's estimated something like 10% of drinkers have "problems" with their drinking. Again, not everyone ends up a homeless drunk - plenty of functioning alcoholics.

[denton-scratch]

10% looks low to me. I know a lot of people that drink, but very few of them are free of drink problems.

[denton-scratch]

This is correct. You have to work on an alcohol addiction. It takes a few months to develop a dependency severe-enough that withdrawal might result in seizures. Short of that, you can just quit, if you can get time off work for a few days in bed.

You also have to work on a heroin addiction, so I have heard. It simply isn't true that "one dose and you're hooked". People become addicts because they want to be addicts, for whatever reason. Part of it is lifestyle; part of it is the desire to be dependant, so you get to not have to be responsible for yourself.

[watwut]

> You also have to work on a heroin addiction, so I have heard. It simply isn't true that "one dose and you're hooked".

When I looked at it, it is something like 30% of people develop dependence after first one-two usages. Then there are people who can use it casually for a long time before developing it.

[denton-scratch]

I shouldn't have said "you can just quit" - that's medical advice, and I'm no kind of medic. A decent nurse will tell you if you'll be able to just sleep it off.

Sorry for commenting to self, but it's too late to edit.

[4thwaywastrel]

I can't be sure because I've never tried heroin, but it might be possible to feel that good without drugs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhy%C4%81na_in_Buddhism

[denton-scratch]

Dhyana meditation comes with its own risks. In general, "religion" is quite dangerous stuff, and should not be fed to children.

[Yajirobe]

Expand on this please

[denton-scratch]

Meditating on the six dhyanas (or "janas") is a kind of single-pointed concentration. One of the side-effects is supposedly "bliss" (sukha). It's strong medicine, and if it works, it will alter your mind - that's what it's for.

I have to say I've never tried it; I was warned off it.

If you're doing it for the bliss, your motivation is wrong, and you are at risk of vanity and playing power-games with people. If that happens, you will suffer harm.

If you were asking why I think religion is not for children, well: I think tales about fairies, angels and Santa Claus are not for children. I don't think you should lie to children, nor encourage them to subscribe to superstitious beliefs. By "children", I mean anyone with underdeveloped critical faculties. I read fairy stories to my kids, at bedtime; but I didn't pretend they were true.

Some religious systems present very interesting ways of looking at the world, the mind, and morality. But it's like hard drugs; it affects your mind and your relationships, and not necessarily for the better. I think that tangling with a religious system should only be done with care, and under appropriate supervision. The matter of how to choose a suitable spiritual mentor is an unsolved problem.

[costcopizza]

I think he’s implying if he had that outlet, maybe heroin would have never been encountered.

[dustintrex]

He was first prescribed opiates for an injury.

[nwienert]

Just to throw in my 2c, I’ve had dilaudid a few times for an injury and other opiates for various reasons, and while they feel great, they really never cross my mind much and I don’t hold them close to many sober experiences. Not even as good as other drugs, of which I could list 3-4 I’d consider as or more enjoyable.

The above comment feels like a really dramatic description of opiates. I don’t think most anyone with a moderately stable life is at risk of addiction trying them.

[s5300]

> feels like a really dramatic description of opiates. I don’t think most anyone with a moderately stable life is at risk of addiction trying them.

A few years back, perhaps close to a decade ago, there was a fairly well known reporter/journalist who said this same thing. Of course, he was cocky enough to test his presumptions & tried either some form of opiate or heroin, can't recall exactly which. He by all means had a happy and successful life/family.

He ended up getting horribly addicted & there was a good writeup/documentation of everything that happened. I'm having issues finding the article right now though.

Also, anesthesiologists, one of the highest paid, disciplined, and well respected jobs you can get, are also one of the highest risk groups for severe drug addiction.

I think your presumptions are quite incorrect and crass.

[Multiplayer]

This took place in real time on reddit, pretty much. If not this exact case - very close to it. You can search for it.

[dustintrex]

Summary here: https://www.reddit.com/r/MuseumOfReddit/comments/68srty/spon...

[c23gooey]

I think people experience the euphoria of opiates differently. Anecdotally - i've never found opiates compelling. I appreciate their ability to numb severe pain, but they don't do anything for me as a mental release. Whereas a good friend is the opposite, he loves the feeling opiates give him and gets quite a kick out of them. He is very careful around them because he understands that he could easily slip into a full blown addiction with them. BTW - this friend has a stable job, a loving wife and 2 kids.

[jamiek88]

My wife had chemo and was given oxycodone. She hated it as it just made her nauseous. I had one low dose 5mg pill of hers and suddenly felt as if everything was finally right, the euphoria was there but it was more. ‘I finally feel normal’. It was dramatic and I’ve been battling the temptation ever since.

I wish I’d never tried it.

[musicale]

As I understand it, even mild pain medications like ibuprofen (for women though apparently not for men) and acetominophen can relieve emotional pain as well as physical pain.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/02/180206090700.h...

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/the-courage-our-conn...

[SuoDuanDao]

I heard a story - can't find the reference now - of a doctor who got addicts to replace their drug addiction with exercise addictions. From what I recall the program was quite successful at making the patients functional, but didn't really do much for the underlying issues - just made the addiction itself less damaging.

[krater23]

Makes sense. I talked about it with a friend of mine, a ex-junky. He said, all people he know from the Methadon-program are dead because they just died on alcohol. He said, they don't take Heroin because Heroin make addicted, they take Heroin because they needed 'the hammer on the head'. They switched from Heroin to a more damaging addiction. Why this should not work with less damaging addictions too?

[asdff]

Pretty common on the west coast to hear about people taking suboxone to quell their heroin addiction but doing meth now to get high because its so cheap and available in this part of the country due to the industrialized processes in mexico that came online over the past 10 years.

[denton-scratch]

There is no organ in the body that isn't harmed by alcohol. This is what doctors have told me. The ethanol molecule is tiny, and can pass through any membrane.

[toyg]

That's the "Trainspotting 2" theory: we're all addicts, just replace one addiction for another. Film director and comedian Kevin Smith once said his friend Jay Mewes manages to stay away from his heroin addiction by drinking gallons of energy drinks.

[jareklupinski]

I really honed in on this part:

> They knew he would never get drugs when I was there. He wouldn’t shatter the illusion he and his family crafted for me. It wouldn’t be worth it, not even for a fix.

seemed to be something that really worked? albeit for the while