[nixass]

> They are going after the German Sedan market where performance has been always their upsell for higher prices (think M-Series or AMG)

The German Sedan market has something Tesla does not nor it will in next 10 years or longer - the build quality. They are just laughingly bad comparing to German trio, in every assembly/build aspect. Once they reach somewhat comparable level of quality (and that's a big if), the trio will have well established EV offering

[rsj_hn]

German luxury sedans are known for comfort and handling, but not build quality.

They break down a lot and are moneypits. Part of the problem is the heavy reliance on plastics that break down with wear, therefore modern German sedans are much less reliable than they used to be.

Another problem is the extreme complexity which also translates to poor reliability.

Another is the high prices of parts. A battery replacement on a BMW costs $300 because the computer system needs to be reprogrammed. A Mercedes fuel pump assembly runs $600 (for a Camry it's $200-300). An Audi headlight assembly is $1100 (for a Camry, it's $250). These are OEM prices.

The high maintenance costs are capitalized as depreciation and are reflected in the resale value.

In my zip code, the private party sale value (accoring to KBB) of a 2012 Honda Accord SE in Good condition with 120K miles is $7K (median). For a 2012 Audi A4 with the same miles and condition, it's $4.8K - basically one of these tricked out new macbook pros with the M1 max chip.

A 2017 Audi A4 with 60K miles sells for 20K - it loses half its value. The 2017 Honda Accord sells for 19K. So it overtakes the A4 in value in year 6.

None of the above is a prediction that an out of warranty Tesla wont also be considered a money pit. Maybe it will -- we don't really have the reliability data yet, and there isn't a robust network of independent repair shops yet, it's all very new. But the German sedans do not constitute a high bar to surpass, the Japanese sedans do.

[nixass]

Build quality does not equate mechanical reliability. I'm talking about the way the cars are built, the chassis, frames, gaps, interior and the rest. Not the engines

[throwaway0a5e]

Exactly. The Germans are completely willing to over-complicate the shit out of things for 3% more performance out of that system. But when the go to actually build said Rube Goldberg contraption it is dead nuts on and works perfectly so long as you maintain it by the book, and the book might entail replacing an entire cooling system at 100k because why not.

[rsj_hn]

The huge dependence on plastics as a replacement for metal components really does cause a lot of systems to break down.

Yes, maybe they were planned to break down, but you can understand that for the end user, it certainly doesn't appear like a system with high build-quality.

But ignoring that point, yes, the drive-train is excellent. German engines and transmissions are first-rate. However counting on that as giving you an advantage in the world of electric vehicles doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[EdwardDiego]

> The German Sedan market has something Tesla does not nor it will in next 10 years or longer - the build quality.

Eh? German cars are renowned in my country for becoming giant money pits once they're 4 - 6 years old.