[tinus_hn]

The problem with iDeal is that there is 0 consumer protection. If you pay for an order using a credit card and it’s a scam, you do a chargeback. If you pay for an order using iDeal and it’s a scam, the money is gone the moment you pay. There is no way to get the money back.

[semi-extrinsic]

I love how Americans are totally fine with paying a tax on every transaction they make in order to protect random people from occurrences of financial fraud, yet are vehemently opposed to exactly the same system for healthcare.

I mean, rationally you would expect the opposite: people typically don't do $10k+ transactions using credit cards, so a worst case consequence of fraud you're not protected from is quite small.

But for medical emergencies, the worst case cost is orders of magnitude larger, so a system that protects everyone (financially) is much more beneficial.

[patentatt]

Oh, you’re giving us Americans too much credit, credit card fraud happens all the time. It’s like a constant thing you have to watch out for, and I’d estimate happens once every couple of years for most people. Either straight up fraud and theft, or just a recurring charge that will not stop no matter what. So the system is super broken and relevant to individuals, which is why people accept all the fees maybe. It’s not a sign that Americans are ok with a communal approach to anything, we’re just as selfish as always with this one. Sometimes it does feel like a third world country.

[lotsofpulp]

> It’s like a constant thing you have to watch out for, and I’d estimate happens once every couple of years for most people. Either straight up fraud and theft, or just a recurring charge that will not stop no matter what.

Not in my experience. I probably have 10 to 15 credit cards for over a decade, and only once have I had a fraudulent transaction. And even if there was, you simply call the bank, dispute it, and that’s the end of that. Same with recurring charges.

It is even less of a problem going forward since EMV and contactless have become standard.

[Grimm665]

This seems overblown, I've had credit cards for over ten years in the US, using them in person and online, and the only time I've ever had a fraudulent transaction was an hour after my wallet was stolen, which like yeah, kind of expected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "happens once every couple of years for most people."

[smaryjerry]

Your personal experience is not statistically relevant data. It is a major problem here in the US, not just fraudulent transactions, but people signing up for credit cards in your name since the equifax data leak, people creating fake ids to be used to reset your accounts in person, constant phone calls attempting to scam people, and even letters in the mail withhuge print saying “last notice - important - pay now” with very small print saying “this is an offer not an invoice” or like that tricks the elderly and those not careful. All of these and more cause massive amounts of fraud in the US.

[Grimm665]

Well the post I was replying to specified credit card fraud as the rampant issue, the list your provided seems to just be general financial fraud. I agree that financial fraud in general in the US, and probably globally, is a huge problem.

Maybe I'm wrong and all of that can be blamed on credit card fraud, but I'm not so sure.

[smaryjerry]

Most of the examples I gave are done to steal your credit card information and make purchases and transactions under your credit and without your knowledge, not just sell you once for $10 that you have to dispute later once you talk to a friend or relative and find out it’s a scam. In those cases the credit card companies end up eating the cost, although when they find out this has happened to you specifically several times or in very large amount then, often through no fault of your own, you will get kicked off the credit card so they can save money.

[mint2]

I’ve had at one card # stolen each year for the past 4 years.

I’m pretty sure it’s gas stations and airport merchants. But it could be hacked online stores.

Amex is good at catching it.

Pnc bank on the other hand wad bad. My work card got used shorty after flying from sfo and PNC bank let them ring up 2,000 of hotel fees and didn’t flag any of it, and due to how the work cards work I didn’t find out until a month or more later

[throwaway473825]

Note that high fees aren't a prerequisite for consumer protection. European credit cards offer full protection, despite having capped interchange fees.

[op00to]

Do they? Can I get an immediate refund for anything if I don’t like the item? I can with my Amex. No questions asked under $1000.

[crtasm]

That doesn't sound like a feature I'd want to pay fees towards enabling but I'm likely missing something - what kind of up-to-$1000 purchases are you making where you might not even like the item?

[op00to]

I have used it multiple times for headphones. “Return protection”. Generally they’ll cover restocking fees if you make a claim.

[Broken_Hippo]

How many places globally are going to accept the Amex? If you are in Europe somewhere, are you going to be able to use it to buy groceries?

Probably not, and almost definitely not at the small retailer. Amex charges are more for the retailer, so they often simply don't accept it.

Other than that, though: I'm not sure how often you even need that $1000 'no questions asked' policy. Second, return policies through the EU market (plus at least one country) are pretty good without credit card protections. It just really isn't a big concern. Finally, the culture around returning goods differs in different areas. Folks here (Norway) seem way less disposed to returning items - especially for simply not liking an item and would rather do some research upfront. (Not working as desired, defective, and things like that are a bit different, but folks still hesitate).

[nomercy400]

From what I understand amex is different from Mastercard or visa in Europe. The European limit on fees does not count for amex, or the fees are much higher. I'm not sure exactly. This usually means support for amex is lower than Mastercard or visa.

[belltaco]

>I can with my Amex. No questions asked under $1000

So you don't try to return the item for a refund first?

[op00to]

That is an obvious step 0. So I suppose there is one question asked: “did you try to return it”. It is of no consequence. If the vendor takes it back I’m happy. If not, I collect from Amex’s insurance.

[op00to]

This is so far off topic, but just like Americans are guilty of seeing the rest of the world as a homogenous entity, you are making a huge miscalculation on what “Americans” want.

[jokethrowaway]

Americans really don't have a choice, the merchants are making the rules and offering a service.

Anyway Americans pay pretty high taxes, they're comparable to Europe (albeit not as high as crazy countries like Italy, Spain or France, I have no idea how those countries can even survive). I'm sure they'd be more than happy if the government were spending less and letting them to pay less taxes and buy a private insurance instead.

The problem with the US healthcare and higher education is not being private, it's being too expensive - tldr thanks to government intervention some actors got away with massively raising prices with no competition

[mint2]

The main problem with healthcare is prices are not transparent and the customers don’t have the ability to shop around even if the prices were known.

[AdrianB1]

In term of insurance systems, the 2 are extremely different, so the comparison is not justified.

[the-dude]

Have you ever done a chargeback in NL? Which card? Which bank? What kind of proof was required?

ICS requires you to snailmail them printouts of your purchase etc. within a small time window.

[unglaublich]

There is no customer protection because the payment system is not broken and insecure by design (e.g., hand your secrets over to an unverified entity and allow them to charge random amounts of money), plus there is no insane 3% fee. All those "benefits" that CCs argue to offer do not add up to the value of 3% of all your transactions.

[Sander_Marechal]

Yes there is, talk to your bank. Consumer protection is way better in the EU. I use the same Dutch bank that the OP uses (ING) and I can revert many transactions from right inside the app.

[tinus_hn]

You can revert automatic transactions (as these are unauthorized and can be done by parties that know just your account number) but it is impossible to revert iDeal payments.

[krageon]

> as these are unauthorized

It is mandatory to request authorization, but the banks do not have a way to verify that outside of a little flag that says "yes I definitely asked".

https://gocardless.com/guides/sepa/mandates/

[apexalpha]

This isn't true. There is a delay between the iDeal transaction and the money being transferred. If you call your bank immediately, like my mum after being scammed, they can revert it.