Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by g-clef 1729 days ago
It sounds to me like this whole thing is based on Paul Eggert trying to preemptively avoid the political question of "what is a country?". He says in one of the threads [1]:

  There is a distinction, though, between tz mailing-list politics (the focus of much of the recent
  discussion) and real-world politics (things like, "is Kosovo a country?"). My main worry is the
  latter not the former, in that I think it's worth making minor technical changes to tzdb now to
  help forestall potentially major real-world political problems down the road, problems
  that could be worse than being sued by astrologers. Admittedly not everyone sees things this way.
...the elephant no one seems to be talking about as the canonical example of the question is Taiwan.

Rather than get wrapped around the political axle of whether Taiwan counts as a country for purposes of inclusion in the timezone db, it sounds like he wants to just set up a system where tzdb says "here's a time zone that's identified by its biggest city." That way if Taiwan is listed, it's only because it happened to be the biggest city in its timezone, not because the tzdb is making any political statement about its political status.

That's understandable from a certain point of view, but I think it's doomed to failure for a couple reasons:

1) the tzdb never did this in the past, so it's a huge change to the default behavior. Changing the world's timezone names is an enormous change, that will break an f-ton of stuff, so downstream folks are understandably unhappy about it. The moment something important breaks because a system couldn't find "US/Eastern" is the moment this either gets reverted or forked.

2) You may not want to play the political game, but it wants to play with you. City/territory names aren't neutral, either, and are just as political (Derry/Londonderry), so relying on city names doesn't actually solve the problem, it just makes it less likely.

I suspect they're going to have to stick with countries, and let IANA make the determination of what's a country, so they don't have to have gigantic political fights, they can defer to IANA policy.

[1]: https://mm.icann.org/pipermail/tz/2021-June/030177.html

1 comments

Another motivation behind the change seems to be to treat all countries equally. Previously, some countries (such as Norway and Sweden) with equal timezones since 1970, but differing timezones before 1970 got their own zone, while other countries in the same situation (such as Angola and Niger) shared a zone.

The controversial solution to this is that all places with equal timezones since 1970 have been merged to share a single zone with the pre-1970 history of the largest place in that zone (which might not be valid for the whole zone). There are backward-compatibility links provided so that the old zone names still work, and there was a pre-existing build option to include all known (but incomplete) pre-1970 data, which splits the zones again.

Opponents of that change argue that instead of consolidating currently-alike zones, every currently-existing country should get their own zone with the pre-1970 history of the largest place in that zone (which, again, might not be valid for the whole zone). To do this correctly would of course require someone to volunteer the pre-1970 data for zones that would be split, which notably no one seems to have done yet.

What's most remarkable to me as an outsider is about how incredible niche the usecase where this makes a difference is: you have to be interested in pre-1970 timestamps, but build tzdb without enabling the pre-1970 historic data.

Some of the alternative proposals were (I think) to do time zones based on time zone authorities / to do timezones per country etc. So instead of merging countries that share the same timezones you would add entries? I will say it was hard to follow.

But yes, Paul seems to be clear that it will be prohibited to use the older time zone database for diversity and inclusion reasons. So it does seem to be driven by that to a degree.

> Paul seems to be clear that it will be prohibited to use the older time zone database for diversity and inclusion reasons.

This is utter and complete nonsense. He said the old database was incompatible with diversity and equity values, but he never once said anyone would be prohibited from using it.