[OzCrimson]

A lot of comments are criticizing Excel users as if we are resistant to learning more about other programming languages. Resistant as in hard-headed or lazy.

One thing to remember is that the vast majority of Excel users aren't fully in IT or tech. We have to deal with data but the roles aren't primarily data roles.

- Customer Service Reps

- Admin Assistants

- Warehouse Managers

- Non-profit Fundraisers

- Sales Reps

- Realtors

- Inventory Managers

- Insurance Agents

I've taught at non-profit conferences and saw how people were torn. The fundraiser who uses Excel every day has to decide: do I spend 4 hours in an Excel session or 4 hours in a session on fundraising trends?

===

So many roles require some kind of data use, and Excel is immediately accessible, even if all it is is typing numbers into a cell, hand-coloring certain values and getting a sum.

Here's the question: WHEN is a person best served to put in the time and effort required to learn Python, JavaScript or another formal programming language? WHEN should a Warehouse Manager be sent to a Python class? What would that situation look like?

Personally, I hate true programming--and I've done a lot of it. But true programming is a whole different mindset. I like the visual aspect of Excel. But when I open a code editor and there's this wall of letters, numbers, indents, curly-brackets ... WOAAAHHHHHHH! No. HELL NO!

Even with WordPress and the templates that are supposedly drag-&-drop, I still found myself writing CSS and HTML.

===

One other thing. Don't forget looking the opposite way. Too many coders don't know what Excel can do. I watched a presentation on 6 hours of JavaScript that someone wrote to accomplish a task. That same task would have taken less than 5 minutes in Excel.

[sokoloff]

I think a lot more automation/computing should be done in these more approachable “citizen programming” tools.

“Job done”, “I did it myself”, and “I understand how it works” are three qualities that are often undervalued when “real programmers” look at the work of “citizen programmers”. I say this as someone who loves and makes a living at “real programming”.

We need more not less sub-real programming.

[OzCrimson]

WOW! Excellent perspective. And I've never heard the term "citizen programmer" before.

You're right. "I did it myself" and "I understand how it works" are definitely undervalued. And that plays into a lot of the empowerment/disempowerment conversation.

I had a client who would have me build prototypes in Excel, then he'd hand them over to his in-house development team. I asked him why he uses me in the middle. He explained that he can guide me and kinda understand what I'm doing, and we can test and tweak formulas really easily. He can stop me and ask questions if I start doing something that seems wrong.

Then he said, "but, when my devs open that code editor, I don't know what the hell I'm looking at."

That was a different kind of disempowerment that he felt vis-a-vis his own devs.

[sokoloff]

I first read “citizen programmer” here on HN and it immediately resonated. I’m happy to pass it along, but I can’t properly attribute from whom I first read it.

[CRConrad]

One story:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8612828 - The Salesforce Platform: The Return of the Citizen Programmer - by leephillips, 7 years ago

Three comments:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27651486 - by patentatt, 3 months ago, on: Why did we ever think a student's first programming language didn't matter?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17384284 - by DonHopkins, 3 years ago, on: Ted Nelson struggles with uncomprehending radio interviewer (1979) [audio]

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16228498 - by dragonsky67, 4 years ago, on: Ted Nelson on What Modern Programmers Can Learn from the Past [video]

[sokoloff]

Thanks for the research! None of those ring a bell, but I can’t be certain (and can’t be certain it was directly from here).