[WastingMyTime89]

> a) abandon New Caledonia entirely.

It's more that Caledonia could chose to leave. But that only marginaly change the issue. France has other territories in the Pacific.

> b) join AUKUS as a junior partner, very painful but logical;

That would be very illogical. France interests are not aligned with the USA. Also they are a nuclear country with a permanent seat on the UN security council. They will never be a junior partner to an alliance with the USA or Australia let alone the UK.

> c) embrace China out of spite or as a result of different geopolitical calculus. That would probably have significant realignment echos in Europe

There is no need for spite or realignment. China is a diplomatic and commercial partner of the EU. The systemic opposition is strictly the doctrine of the USA. There is plenty to gain through the diplomatic route as long as you see China as an equal partner and not an inferior country. Lobbying China is harder than it used to be but not impossible.

There are plenty of alternative to these three scenarios anyway. The logical next steps would just be pushing for further for military integration in the EU (Afghanistan already left a sour taste in everyone's mouth anyway) and lobby to get the EU - Australia free trade agreement severely limited then carry on as usual. The relationship with the UK will see no progress as long as Johnson is PM so it seems useless to waste time on it.

[inglor_cz]

> There is plenty to gain through the diplomatic route as long as you see China as an equal partner and not an inferior country.

Does China see other countries as equal partners? Their Howling Wolf diplomacy seems to kick in whenever anything they dislike appears in any media. See their current hatefest against Lithuania, a country with population smaller than Shanghai.

I for one am not very ready to sacrifice, e.g. freedom to criticize the Chinese system or to say that Taiwan is Taiwan and not Chinese Taipei or whatever. And I do not trust China commercially either, given their history of copying everything and then flooding markets with cheap knock-offs to undermine the original producers.

We have a load of our own problems here in the West, but we can at least discuss them mostly freely and the authoritarian developments (governmental and distributed alike) tend to get some pushback and dissent, and the dissidents do not end up in jail or shot. These are not the values of Xi's China and any partnership with it will end in Beijing dictating their demands.

[WastingMyTime89]

> Does China see other countries as equal partners? Their Howling Wolf diplomacy seems to kick in whenever anything they dislike appears in any media.

China is an authoritarian country with a strategic vision which put it at odd with its closest neighbors. It's in no way an easy partner. Then again, neither is it an unreadable one nor a completely unreasonable one. What China wants is pretty clear: control of the South China sea and being the dominant soft power of the region. With this framework in mind, a lot can be achieved through negociations.

I am not saying countries should always be soft with China. Their track record record regarding human rights is worrying. I am very much in favor of using tit for tat measures regarding their distortion of competitive markets and their threats on the Chinese diaspora in Europe and the USA have to stop.

Still I am not convinced that a policy of systematic opposition and war mongering will do much good. Xi Jinping is already 68. His rule won't last eternally. It seems better to me to adopt a position of observation, containment and soft power influence than direct confrontation. I understand that Taiwan might be a victim of it which sadden me a bit but is something I am fine with from a realpolitik point of view. I consider this position better for Europe than following the USA in its opposition which I view as essentially motivated by a desire to protect the position they consider to be theirs in the international order rather than some kind of moral imperative.

[inglor_cz]

"Xi Jinping is already 68. His rule won't last eternally."

Eternally not, but the recent progresses in longevity field might give him 20-30 more years at the helm.

This is an interesting strategic question that isn't discussed as much as it ought to. Even Western nations are evolving into gerontocracies. We should probably introduce some hard term limits. Already there are U.S. Senators that served more than 40 years.

[nicoburns]

> See their current hatefest against Lithuania, a country with population smaller than Shanghai.

The US isn't much better. They have a history of invading of destabilising the governments of countries they don't like.

> we can at least discuss them mostly freely and the authoritarian developments (governmental and distributed alike) tend to get some pushback and dissent, and the dissidents do not end up in jail or shot.

Tell that to all the countries who tried to implement communist systems of government... and found their leaders shot or in jail.

> I do not trust China commercially either, given their history of copying everything and then flooding markets with cheap knock-offs to undermine the original producers.

And I don't trust the US commercially, with their history of enforcing tariff-free markets on countries and flooding them with cheap US-made goods that wipe out domestic production leaving the countries in very dire straits (see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_production_in_Haiti).

[inglor_cz]

This is where different countries have different experiences.

If I were a Latin American, I would be distrustful towards American power projection. But I am a Central European and our history with the U.S. is a lot better.

I am not trusting them blindly, but the worst import we had from the U.S. so far was a shallow-ish pop culture, plus some of the racial nonsense that really rubs the wrong way in a different context.

[nicoburns]

As a citizen of the UK, I'd argue that Reagan-style economics (which caused us to privatise a lot of our industry and public services in a such a way that it was effectively just a huge cash giveaway to private companies) and ridiculous copyright terms are our worst imports. You may be less effected by those kind of things in Central Europe though, and you could certainly argue, and you could certainly argue that these were our own stupidity rather than being enforced upon us.

[me_me_me]

> The US isn't much better. They have a history of invading of destabilising the governments of countries they don't like.

This is whataboutism and has nothing to do with discussion on France/EU's stance of China.

Reading on you comments, are you living in the past? We are discussing current politics.

> Tell that to all the countries who tried to implement communist systems of government... and found their leaders shot or in jail.

That was happening 40 years ago in current EU countries, whats your point?!

> with their history of enforcing tariff-free markets on countries and flooding them with cheap US-made goods that wipe out domestic production leaving the countries in very dire straits

Again derailing conversation from China to USA

Edit: go ahead and keep downvoting me for literally pointing out logical fallacies

[nicoburns]

It's relevant because a primary alternative to partnering with China is likely to be partnering with the US.

[me_me_me]

US largely outsourced its manufacturing, so EU is not as dependant on US as other way around - EU to USA import export graph [0]

Treating EU like a tiny country that needs to rely on imports of finished products is discounting the fact EU is the largest trading block in the world.

Besides EU can decide to incentivise the manufacturing of key goods (like germany getting into electronics manufacture).

Also US cannot bully EU like it does other weaker countries.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

[roenxi]

> lobby to get the EU - Australia free trade agreement severely limited then carry on as usual

This type of response always baffles me. Australia here is not buying what France is selling. If they object to that, making it harder for Australians to buy other things France is selling is the opposite of clever.

And in reverse - Australia sells food and raw materials. Under what circumstances is it bad for France to trade bits of paper for actually useful physical goods?

Restricting trade is cutting of the nose to spite the face. Australia sells commodities, we don't care if any individual block trades with us. China tried clamping down on trade with Australia and it didn't achieve much. They've got to buy from someone else, that someone else's customers becomes Australia's customers.

[WastingMyTime89]

> Australia here is not buying what France is selling. If they object to that, making it harder for Australians to buy other things France is selling is the opposite of clever.

Australia have been extremely untransparent regarding their position and how they conducted the whole negociation. They lied to their French counterparts during the summer and announced their withdrawal in an extermely clumsy and frankly disrespectful way. Why would you want to put in place treaties easing controls and trades with countries which have already proven they are dishonest?

> Restricting trade is cutting of the nose to spite the face.

No one talked about restrictions. I just expect France to lobby for things to stay as they are rather than go in the direction of easier trading.

[roenxi]

What plausible risk is there that Australians won't honour the deals they make under a free trade deal? If someone buys a million dollars worth of Australian beans they're going to get tonnes of beans.

I don't fault the French if they don't see a benefit and want to be annoying in some sort of tit-for-tat strategy; but making trade harder is not going to make their lives better. People only trade when the trade improves their position.

A $60+ billion military deal is never going to be handled under a free trade agreement. I haven't read into the details but I doubt there was even any fraud involved; just standard political backstabbing. The French weren't given an opportunity but they are not worse off.

[inglor_cz]

In France, fierce protectionism is part of the governmental policy longer than the Republic exists. This has seeped into EU policies as well, though not to the same extent.