[zwegner]

I only found out about Bespoke a few minutes ago, but I will say using Max as a programmer can be incredibly frustrating. I've made a handful of nontrivial M4L devices and have run up into tons of weird decisions, limitations, bugs, and plenty of Ableton crashes. (Caveat: this information in this post is mostly from a couple years ago and might be out of date, I haven't gotten the latest Ableton)

The JS support is really weird. It's only JS 1.6 (from 2005), and had weird glitches (like loading two instances of the same device causing the first device to stop working), and I couldn't get the timing tighter than about 30ms. Ideally you could write code that runs at audio rate.

There's also "gen", which is a Max-specific scripting language that is presumably real-time suitable through a JIT. Unfortunately you need a separate Max license to use it, even the full Ableton Live Suite doesn't give you gen support. You can sorta hack around and use it by manually editing the .maxpat files (which are almost JSON), copying from a device that uses gen, but there are lots of weird glitches going this route.

A list of a few annoying things about M4L:

* Documentation is pretty sparse and/or low quality, and weirdly split into two (help and references).

* All variables are global across devices by default, local (device-specific) variables need the prefix "---", which is barely documented

* Tons of annoying UX issues, like entering an invalid value in the inspector just reverts to the old value. You can't enter an empty string for parameter values, that reverts too (you need to enter a literal ""). Certain functionality is only available depending on whether the device is "locked", so you have to lock/unlock the view all the time if you're working with e.g. subpatchers

* Abstraction is quite annoying to do. There's three different types of patches, and it's not really clear what the difference is between them. Creating subpatches and then duplicating them creates two different subpatches--changes in one are not shared with others.

* ...and a ton of other things. I have a big text document of these gripes I was intending to turn into a blog post, but haven't gotten around to it.

Maybe I'm wrong and there's better ways to do some of these things, but overall my experience learning M4L was pretty bad. If it wasn't the only way to do certain advanced things in Ableton, I'd never touch it again.

[iainctduncan]

I'm also a programmer, and it sounds to me like you're expecting Max to be something it isn't. It's not meant to be a regular programming environment, it was created to be accessible to non-programmers. But you can extend it with C, C++, Java, Csound, Chuck, SuperCollider, etc.

I will agree however that the JS implementation is neutered, probably because they have to worry about support volumes. This is one of the reasons I created Scheme For Max, which unlike the JS object, allows running in the high priority thread, does hot code reloading, and is open source and can be recompiled to your liking. Now that I have Scheme for Max, I love Max (and Max4Live) to bits, they are a fantastic environment, and I do all the coding in S7 Scheme or C. :-)

https://github.com/iainctduncan/scheme-for-max

[zwegner]

I really don't think being accessible to non-programmers is the cause of my issues. If anything, I'd say that targeting non-programmers might exacerbate these issues, because those users would be less likely to realize how unintuitive some aspects of Max are, thinking it's because programming in general is difficult.

I didn't touch too much on the specifics in my post, but there are lots of little design oddities I ran into when doing relatively simple tasks. Like creating a multiplexer for messages: the [switch] object has an "empty" channel for input 0 (and regular inputs are 1-indexed), so you'll often need an extra +1 object for the control input. And the inputs of [switch] have no memory, so every time the control changes, you need to send a bang to resend the message in the now-active channel. Or say you want to multiplex signals. That uses the [selector~] object (why not [switch~]?), and has the same +1 issue as [switch]. But what if you want a short crossfade when switching inputs to avoid harsh transients? "Good luck" is all I'll say here.

I'm not generally trying to do anything super-complicated with Max. I have indeed used the C extension API when it makes sense (building a wavetable synth), and it was OK. I still contend that the main visual programming environment is not very good, for programmers and non-programmers alike.

...anyways, all that said, Scheme For Max looks really cool :)

[tomduncalf]

Yeah Max’s JS support is pretty weird.

I spent some time figuring out nicer ways to work with it in order to build an Octatrack-style parameter crossfader for M4L, it provides some abstractions and setup to make using Typescript with Max a bit more pleasant. Still plenty of limitations but I was able to get my device working pretty well in the end. Apologies for lack of docs!

https://github.com/tomduncalf/livefader

[WillEngler]

Yeesh, thanks for sharing all this. I would eagerly read that blog post!

I've gotten really into Ableton this past year and I've been curious whether I should get into Max for Live. Being a programmer and looking at their marketing materials, it seemed like it should tap into the right parts of my brain. But seeing your comment now ... maybe not the right move. Especially because I'm not looking to accomplish anything special, I just want a sandbox to play with digital audio concepts.

[iainctduncan]

I would recommend the Cipriani and Giri books and plain old Max (or Pd). They have written the best introductions to playing with digital audio, full stop. Best computer music books made, IMHO.

[zwegner]

No problem! Maybe I'm just being too negative, after all there are lots of people having fun creating stuff with it (and I like having the devices I've made). But there was definitely a big impedance mismatch of what I had in my head vs. how to implement it, so I wouldn't personally use it for any exploratory sandbox-y type stuff.