[Retric]

Many things don’t have a neutral middle ground. What can governments or other employers require of their employees?

Can cops lie to suspects is another tricky one. At one end is a flat no, at the other is misrepresent themselves as the defendants lawyer or pretend to offer immunity in exchange for turning on other suspects.

[mindslight]

My point about employment is that if employees had a good amount of bargaining power to say no (and not just yes to a different employer that will tend to move in lock step), then arbitrary requirements by any given employer wouldn't much matter. It's only the fact that people need a continual income to pay their financial rents that is the source of their needing to work and accept poor conditions. If we want to increase liberty in the general sense, then we need to concentrate on making it so people aren't mashed together in such zero sum engagements.

For cops lying to suspects, I have a hard time seeing how that is an exercise in liberty. They're working as agents of the state, and thus need to perform the specified job - if they wish to lie, then they can quit their job. For sure there is a tradeoff involving their effectiveness versus the liberty of individuals, but that isn't a tradeoff of liberty versus liberty. For this topic, the ACLU should be in the "flat no" camp regardless of where we might want the practical boundary.