[cogman10]

The way the US government works today is VERY different from the government setup by the founders. Trying to divine what they would and wouldn't have wanted (understanding that they were all over the board on opinions) isn't a useful exercise.

The founders didn't want a federal military, they wanted each state to run their own military.

The founders didn't want a strong federal government, they wanted to states to be highly sovereign.

The founders put in the bill of rights to limit the federal government's actions, not state government actions.

The government completely changed after the civil war with the 14th amendment. The constitution was written primarily to limit the powers of the federal government. States were free to put, for example, requirements on religion to run for office.

McDonald v. Chicago would have been appalling to the founders, because it's the federal government trampling over the rights of a state government.

[maxwell]

I agree on divining intent, but I'm not aware of any founder endorsing any form of arms control. I'd be interested to see any references suggesting otherwise. Are you aware of any meaningful debate on what became the Second?

I'm mostly going off Jefferson's "tree of liberty" letter [1], maybe there was dissent amongst other founders?

As far as federal vs. state military, I dunno, references? Each state would have their own navy...? Doesn't seem to fit with Jefferson's willingness to launch a preemptive strike on African pirates at the beginning of his presidency [2].

Agreed on strong states, hence the Tenth, and the impact of the Fourteenth, though I'm actually currently trying to get a better handle on that one (e.g. not entirely clear on equal protection yet).

Disagree on McDonald, doesn't seem like the design allows for states to pass laws that take away rights explicitly enumerated in the federal Constitution. States can "exceed" enumerated rights (like California's affirmative right to free speech), but can't cancel them out. Any sources suggesting otherwise?

1. https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/jefffed.html#105

2. https://www.city-journal.org/html/jefferson-versus-muslim-pi...

[Clubber]

>The founders didn't want a strong federal government, they wanted to states to be highly sovereign.

Depends on which founding father you were talking about. Jeffersonians preferred weak central government and autonomous states while Hamiltonians preferred strong central government. It's what lead to the creation of political parties in Washington's administration.

>The founders put in the bill of rights to limit the federal government's actions, not state government actions.

The Bill of Rights limits both, that's why both state, local and federal laws can be deemed unconstitutional.

[dragonwriter]

> > The founders put in the bill of rights to limit the federal government's actions, not state government actions.

> The Bill of Rights limits both

No, it doesn’t.

Guarantees equivalent to most provisions of the Bill of Rights have been applied to the States through the 14th Amendment under the Incorporation Doctrine.

[Clubber]

Thanks for the info. I thought that was always the case.

https://sixthamendment.org/the-right-to-counsel/history-of-t...

[dragonwriter]

> The founders didn't want a strong federal government

The founders very much didn't at the time of the founding. The framers by the time of the Constitution (a little over a decade later, and many of the same people) had moved quite a bit toward a strong central government based on the immediately-revealed practical problems with the abstract vision at the founding in functioning in the real world. Woth more experience, more practical problems were revealed; the Civil War being a key, but far from the only important, point in that process.