[gverrilla]

Do you think only experts should be programming? I'm an amateur programmer, and I think copilot could help me a lot with unimportant things, as you said - I even tried to install it but I'm not on some list. I can read code, and have built a few programs - I've hired around 30 different programmers in my life, and the vast majority clearly are copy-pasters-adapters. The way I see it, that happens because programming is still way more complex than it should be - and copilot will help with that. Maybe you are thinking about elite developers or perhaps developers on big companies, but I think it will be greatly benefitial for us low-level coders amateurs, freelancers and fresh people. Am I wrong?

[lmilcin]

> Do you think only experts should be programming? I'm an amateur programmer (...)

Amateur vs professional and novice vs expert are completely separate things.

You can be professional novice just as you can be expert amateur.

Now, the answer to your question is an obvious "NO". To be an expert you have to be a novice first.

The problem rather is "Are you making progress towards being an expert or are you just learning to more efficiently execute your novice workflow?"

> The way I see it, that happens because programming is still way more complex than it should be - and copilot will help with that.

No, it is just an illusion of help.

Just as your son may thank you for help when you give him an answer to his homework. From his point of view you have helped him, true, but from another point of view the point of the task wasn't to deliver answer to the teacher, it was to imprint something valuable on the mind of the child.

[gverrilla]

I see, sorry for wrong words. I am an amateur programmer, not a complete novice, and I have contracted mid-level professional programmers.

I understand your point about learning and getting better at it. All I'm saying is most of programmers won't become experts: the market doesn't demand that, and most just aren't able or don't want to.

No-code will make a huge impact in next decade imo.

In my specific case, I would be able to become an expert programmer but I don't intend to because I have other carreer choices. So I think copilot would be of great help.

[kthejoker2]

Why did you redirect OP's question about amateurs to one about novices?

For amateurs, the homework is a great analogy - they don't need a lesson, they need a calculator so they can get back to the professional work they are doing.

[lmilcin]

I did not redirect anything. Please, read more carefully.

Here, the parts you have missed reading the post:

> Do you think only _experts_ should be programming?

> I've _hired around 30 different programmers_ in my life

[saurik]

I think the argument is that an amateur with copilot is going to stay an amateur longer than someone without copilot while simultaneously only helping them create something no one--including them--should rely on: it teaches the wrong habits and helps with the wrong problem.

[lmilcin]

This is good way to put it.

Another way: copilot is a crutch. It may help you move about but if you get too comfortable with it you are never going to learn to run.

[macksd]

I sympathize with where you're coming from, but the phrase "unimportant things" bothers me. I'm always seeing clients deploy alpha or beta software in production. I see tech companies accumulating tech debt like nobodies business. None of that should happen. And often disasters involving tech get traced back to a cascading failure that started with something considered unimportant.

I love that software is an accessible discipline to hobbyists and that it empowers people. But it needs to be a discipline, top to bottom. We need deep understanding with security and robustness as fundamentals, good practices, and all of that baked into our tools.

[lhorie]

From my experience with tutoring, I would say that it won't help. The best way to learn is to mechanically do the work. Having things fed to you yield poorer results, IME.

Another parallel: language learning. You learn more by speaking and writing than merely reading and listening, because the former actually requires you to actively associate grammar rules to your physical actions, whereas consumption has a lower bar of effort since you can infer things from context, gloss over things, etc.

[chakkepolja]

This assuming most people using copilot are going to properly read generated code.