[huibf]

Good luck finding competent developers and paying them European salaries.

Most of these companies hire mediocre developers in small numbers because of budget constraints and then work on their product on borrowed time until the EU seed money runs out.

[southerntofu]

> Good luck finding competent developers and paying them European salaries.

I can assure you some of the brightest people i know are paid a misery in your standards, first of which researchers working for public universities. Free software "consulting" companies like Collabora are also filled with brilliant people.

On the other hand, i don't think i know a single person that gets paid high salary (> 2000-3000€/mo) that does anything useful for society at large or has an interesting skillset. Those are usually managers or Chief Whatever Officers, and i believe the whole society would fare much better without them.

Trying to equate skill/usefulness with salary is a doomed enterprise. You'd be surprised with the knowledge and skills of some janitors cleaning your office, if you ever talk to them.

[Sanguinaire]

I would extend this by saying that most of the people in the US earning mid 6 figures as developers are doing even less good for society than those managers. The market set those salaries high because the negligible marginal cost of reproduction in the software industry is a lure for capital, not because it produces things we actually need.

[nicoburns]

Are you suggesting that European developers are not competent? Because most of us work for European salaries.

[huibf]

I am saying, not suggesting, that developers who accept to work for a much lower salary will naturally be, in average, less competent than those who know their worth.

[sofixa]

That's a stupid argument. EU-based developers usually get paid EU-level salaries ( so higher than the median EU salaries). Some work at American companies' EU-based offices, for slightly better salaries ( sometimes), but things remain in the same ballpark.

Not everyone desires to move to the US to get a Silicon Valley-level salary and sacrifice their Quality of Life for it.

[halo37253]

What's wrong with getting paid more while being able to live in a place with large homes with large yards and wide road ways...

Electricians in the US easily make over $70k early on, and over $100k with in a few years. And that isn't even the best paying trade job.

An experienced Programmer easily can get a job making 120k+, and that isn't even in the valley.

That being said, I wouldn't want to move here either. You get paid more, the homes are nicer and more private, and you fit a big SUV down any road. But the medical system sucks, and really takes a toll on take home $$. Especially with kids. Along with that you have idiots that think trump was the second coming of jesus. And do nothing more than cry about thing that will only hurt them in the long run.

[dragonwriter]

> Electricians in the US easily make over $70k early on, and over $100k with in a few years.

The median pay for electricians in the US is $56,900; the cutoff for the top 10% is under $100K [0], which is quite inconsistent with them “easily” making $70K early on and $100K within a few years.

[0] https://www.bls.gov/ooh/construction-and-extraction/mobile/e...

[halo37253]

Maybe a few years ago, and that number most likely factors in appetences. Not strictly journeymen.

Any Journeymen not taking home north of $65k should be looking for another job, as their employer is screwing them over. There simply isn't enough of them and employers will gladly pay for someone experienced to join their work force. Even with the recent massive pay increases it is hard to keep people from going somewhere else for even higher pay.

A website like that doesn't really keep up with what is really happening in a field like that. $100K/year working 50-60hours a week is not uncommon.

[sofixa]

> That being said, I wouldn't want to move here either. You get paid more, the homes are nicer and more private, and you fit a big SUV down any road.

Which is a thoroughly unsustainable way of living. I like walking and biking, and I wouldn't want to sacrifice them and the practicality of having everything within a walking/biking/public transit distance for more house and yard maintenance.

> But the medical system sucks, and really takes a toll on take home $$. Especially with kids.

And takes a mental toll having to worry about that kind of thing. I don't want to be afraid to go to the doctor.

[krolchat]

Because everyone who "knows their worth" is willing to endure a poor work-life, subpar healthcare, inferior education for their children, volatile social climate, practically non-existent social protection and crazy wildfires in exchange for a higher salary, right?

[halo37253]

Well I can say most of that is hit or miss, and some just downright wrong. Crazy Wildfires is the only correct issue here, lol.

The actual Hospitals and Doctors in America have always been hands down better. Its only if you can afford it. Really any top tier Silicon Valley job is going to come with pretty good heath insurance. The Subpar Healthcare is more or less a poor person problem. Nothing like destroying net worth like having to go to the doctor with sub par insurance. Getting 3-6K+ in bills over a few nonsense visits.

Like I said before I wouldn't move to America either. But to think the EU isn't a$$ Backwards in many ways would be an understatement. I lived in the UK for 3 years, and like most of Europe school system is a hit or miss depending on location. Private Schooling is not uncommon in America for that reason.

This in part is why Americans in higher level careers (family's with income of 120K+) tend to retire with more money in their retirement accounts than their EU brothers. Nearly all my Fellow successful 30yo's had over 50K in their 401k when they turned 30. The ones that didn't are ones that will most likely always jump around to different entry level jobs.

[rospaya]

It's a sad life if money is the only motivator.

[halo37253]

IDK about you, but money is a huge motivator.

Taking advantage of money is exactly what you want to do. Money will make you more money. So not having money working for you only works to keep you down. The more money you have working for you, the more it makes in a given part of time. Want to create generational wealth, you'll need to make as much $$ as you possibly can and teach your kids how to keep growing their chunk after you pass.

As someone that grew up in a lower middle class home where extra cash just didn't exist. My dedication in life is to make my children set in life. I was lucky enough to find a career path to allow for such entitlement. No it is not a sad life, its only sad if said money is purely for self indulgement.

[rospaya]

Notice I wrote ONLY. Of course it's a huge motivation, but would I move to a country or city I hate for x dollars? Would I work in a company that's making chemical weapons that work only on kids? Would I work for Facebook?

No I wouldn't and there are dozens of (less comical) examples where I draw the line.