[gravypod]

There's a lot of push back from engineers - especially people at lower levels of the stack - against testing infrastructure. One particularly famous example is Linux. Rather than testing before merging in code, they merge in code and then test the release candidate as a whole. It also seems game developers are extremely against automated testing frameworks as a whole. I've heard many times that it would be impossible to develop an enemy AI in a test-driven way (I did this for a senior project in college - finished the AI before the game was able to even start testing it [0]).

I wonder what would need to happen to convince people that:

1. Even if you do something extremely low level, you can draw a distinction between your hardware and the interface that 99% of your software runs at.

2. You can develop complex behaviors iteratively with automated testing just like you can develop complex programs iteratively (tests are just programs).

[0] - https://github.com/gravypod/it491-disabler-ai

[PezzaDev]

Automated testing is hard to justify for games because you are not simply finishing features and moving on. You are constantly experimenting. Throwing out features and ideas and reworking them is part of the creative process. Automated testing adds overhead to iteration and isn't free, so you have to be very selective. At the end of the day it is more important for the game to be fun than it is stable.

[jsnell]

Though there are games where the fun has been proven, and it's important to be able to iterate fast without breaking what's already there. There's a great 2016 blog post from Riot on how they test LoL:

https://technology.riotgames.com/news/automated-testing-leag...

[foxfluff]

> I wonder what would need to happen to convince people that ..

3. It's worth it.

I work at (relatively) low levels, and I would absolutely love to have extensive tests (plus more, e.g. TLA+ models to prove critical properties of the systems I work on).

The pushback comes from stakeholders. They don't want to invest time and money into automated testing.

And when no automated testing has been done yet, you can guess that the system hasn't been architected to be easily testable. Figuring out how to add useful tests without massive (time-consuming and expensive, potentially error-prone) re-architecting is also something that requires quite a bit of investment.

Of course a part of is just lack of experience. If someone who knows how it's done could lead by example and show the ropes, that'd probably help. Getting the framework off the ground could be the key to sneaking in some tests in the future, even when nobody asks for them.

[rad_gruchalski]

I did tests for something like this once. Not low level, more of a set of 30+ microservices but the concept is there. The black box testing. This was for a smart home solution based on RabbitMQ. The client wanted to replace RabbitMQ with Kafka but they were anxious because there was no way to verify that the replacement would behave the same way.

So we have spent 2 months writing black box tests against the RabbitMQ version, swapped it out with Kafka and fixed all issues within a couple of weeks.

Since then, I believe that the integration tests are so much more valuable than unit tests.

[axguscbklp]

Or maybe those people know what they are talking about and the truth is that many people who are big fans of automated testing tend to overrate its value when it comes to many areas of software development. Testing takes effort and makes it harder to change things. In an ideal world where testing came for free then sure, more testing would be better. In the real world there are tradeoffs. If I am writing code that controls a spaceship then it makes sense to spend a huge amount of effort on testing. On the other hand, if I am adding a feature to a web application then in my personal experience, most of the time adding automated testing is a waste of effort.

[bsder]

> Or maybe those people know what they are talking about and the truth is that many people who are big fans of automated testing tend to overrate its value when it comes to many areas of software development.

I would normally agree with you, but a TCP Stack is one of those things where I vehemently disagree.

Communication stacks, in general, are giant piles of implicit state unless you go out of your way to manage the state explicitly. As such, they have obscure bugs which are difficult to find when some of the cases are hit rarely.

A communication stack really needs to be written such that the inputs (including TIME), the outputs, the current state, and the next state are all quite explicit. This enables you to test the stack because it is now deterministic with respect to inputs and outputs.

Yes, it's not easy. And it requires that you really mean it and architect it that way. You may not be able to evolve your current stack and may have to throw it away--that's never going to be popular.

However, every single time I have done this for a communication stack (USB, CANopen, BLE, etc.), the result was that the new stack quickly overtook the old stack on basically every metric worth monitoring (throughput, latency, reliability, bug rate, etc.).

Now, to be fair, I was obviously replacing a communication stack that was some level of "pile of crap" or I wouldn't have done it. However, I'm just one person, and those stacks generally came from a company who had a vested interest in it not sucking. I'm not some amazing programmer, and I certainly didn't spend more time on it than the original stack, so it really comes down to the fact that the "underlying architecture" was simply a better idea.

[yurish]

> A communication stack really needs to be written such that the inputs (including TIME), the outputs, the current state, and the next state are all quite explicit. This enables you to test the stack because it is now deterministic with respect to inputs and outputs.

Do you have something open source to look at that uses this approach? The idea is great but I wonder how complicated becomes code when using it.

[bsder]

Sadly, no. I don't rewrite communication stacks for fun. And someone who pays me to do so generally sees it as a competitive advantage.

The complication is that the "event loop" is atomized. This means that initialization, teardown, and iteration are now in your hands. You're responsible for making sure that the "iteration" function is called often enough (ie. both because of timers and incoming packets), not the stack. Of course, because time is an input, you can clearly identify "Oops. I didn't call this often enough."

The advantage is that your "event loops" can now compose. Quite often, it's very hard to get different communication stacks to cooperate because they all want to be the "primary event loop". (A good example of this failure is "async" frameworks--"How do I wait on a screen refresh, a tcp socket, and a character device descriptor simultaneously?"--if your async executor doesn't take all of those into account you're gonna have a bad time) Since the event loops are atomized, you can interleave the "iteration" calls and wait/sleep however you like.

As for open source, to be honest, I probably wouldn't release anything open source these days unless I got a very significant personal benefit somehow. It's not enough to simply create something and put it out there--everybody expects you to be a maintainer and have some infinite well of tactfulness in the face of idiots who deserve to be slapped silly.

For me, the grief from the whiny, entitled contingent is far too high to make producing open source worthwhile nowadays. I respect the people who do it but have no desire to join them.

[gravypod]

> Or maybe those people know what they are talking about and the truth is that many people who are big fans of automated testing tend to overrate its value when it comes to many areas of software development.

There's been a lot of research, and internal studies, done at many companies that show pretty impressive benefits.

When really questioned most engineers just say "I know my code works" or "I test my code, I don't need automated tests". That's the mentality I just don't understand.

> Testing takes effort and makes it harder to change things.

If it "makes things hard to change" just delete the test? You'll still get the benefit of knowing XYZ are broken/altered. You can also automate end-to-end and black box tests which should absolutely not require any modification if you're just refactoring.

> If I am writing code that controls a spaceship then it makes sense to spend a huge amount of effort on testing. On the other hand, if I am adding a feature to a web application then in my personal experience, most of the time adding automated testing is a waste of effort.

If you are working something that is allowed to fail, then sure, you don't really need to care about what practices you do. It's a very end-all-be-all argument to say "it's ok for my things to break". That argument goes just the same for all of these things:

"Why do I need a version control system? It's fine if I manually merge my code incorrectly"

"Why do I need a build system? It's fine if I forget to recompile one of my files"

etc.

In addition: the "argument" for automated testing isn't that it will just prevent you from breaking something. It's that it lets you know when things change and makes it easy to update your code without manually checking if things are broken. Recently, when adding features to our frontend, I just run our tests and update a png file in our repo. I then play around until my styling is how I like it. It's completely automated and saves me a lot of time. It also lets others know immediately when their CSS change will effect, or will not effect, my components.

[axguscbklp]

>There's been a lot of research, and internal studies, done at many companies that show pretty impressive benefits.

I would need to look at the research and studies to see whether I actually believe them. I have seen how politicized and tribal technical decisions can become at a company and can easily imagine that there might be confounding variables.

>When really questioned most engineers just say "I know my code works" or "I test my code, I don't need automated tests". That's the mentality I just don't understand.

If I do not write automated tests and then my code works fine in production 95% of the time, and out of the 5% of the time that it breaks, 99% of the time it is a problem that is easily fixed and causes no major problems, and even the few major problems are of the "lose a manageable amount of money" kind and not the "people get injured or killed" kind - meanwhile if, on the other hand, writing automated tests would add 50% more effort to my work - then the cost/benefit analysis might suggest that I should not write automated tests. Keep in mind that I could spend that 50% more effort instead doing things that will make my code less likely to break but that are not automated testing. "not adding automated testing" is not the same thing as "not doing anything that will make the code less likely to break".

>If it "makes things hard to change" just delete the test? You'll still get the benefit of knowing XYZ are broken/altered.

If I delete the test then I will have wasted part of the effort that went into writing it. Usually when I change code I already know that things will work differently afterward and that things might break, so this would not tell me anything I did not already know.

>You can also automate end-to-end and black box tests which should absolutely not require any modification if you're just refactoring.

Agreed - I am much more friendly towards end-to-end tests than towards unit tests. I still would not advocate them dogmatically, but I find them to be more useful than unit tests.

>If you are working something that is allowed to fail, then sure, you don't really need to care about what practices you do. It's a very end-all-be-all argument to say "it's ok for my things to break". That argument goes just the same for all of these things:

I think that you might be seeing things in too binary a way. The vast majority of software products are allowed to fail, but not all of them are allowed to fail to the same degree. The practices do matter and there is no one-size-fits-all approach to testing. The context matters. What rate of failure is acceptable such that to try to prevent failure beyond that rate would actually be counterproductive? What specific impacts would more vs. less testing have on the development process? How do the relevant pros and cons fit into the overall goal of the organization? Etc.

I am not saying "it's ok for my things to break", nor are probably most people who question automated testing dogma saying "it's ok for my things to break". We are saying that there are tradeoffs. Sometimes adding more automated testing does not actually add value. Again, it depends on the exact context.

Regarding the rest of what you wrote: I am not disputing that automated testing can bring lots of benefits. I am just saying that I think some people are too dogmatic about it, see it too much as a magic pill, push for its use too broadly, and do not take the relevant tradeoffs sufficiently into account.

[lloydatkinson]

I agree - it seems it's only excuses that keep certain devs away from testing. Even Factorio manages testing, though its more of an integration test. I'm sure it could be done with unit tests too.

[gravypod]

I think even integration tests would be a huge improvement for most teams and software. As long as some automated checks are run before code is merged you're going to save yourself a lot of heart ache.