[robertlf]

As long as we're having a big bitch-fest here, I'll throw in my $.02. Other than expanding batteries, my laptops have generally been trouble-free. But the problem I do have is that the older my MBP, the slower it becomes when I upgrade the OS. When I upgraded my 2015 to Big Sur last year, it essentially became unusable because it ran so slowly. It now sits in my closet. Apple should stop nagging you to upgrade the OS if your hardware wasn't built to support the newer versions. Just give us security updates and leave the rest alone. I think that would make a lot of users happy.

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

"Apple should stop nagging you to upgrade the OS if your hardware wasn't built to support the newer versions."

When Apple introduced OSX I refused to upgrade a G4; I stayed on OS9. I never connected that computer to the internet, it was only used as a DAW.

This "upgrade the OS" nonsense is an old trick. Microsoft made it infamous.

I had Windows computers back in the day, late 90s, where I only upgraded the hardware, not the OS. This went in direct opposition to all marketing, "technical advice" and hype.

These computers were always much faster. Hardware keeps getting faster and cheaper. Software keeps getting larger and slower.

Upgrades are almost never PRIMARILY for the user's benefit. Developers will never admit it. Upgrades are what developers want, not users. Then they try to convince people that everyone should want these "improvements".

Not that I know what other users want, but I want stuff that works reliably, does not slow down and does not need constant fixing. I prefer software that stays the same over software that is constantly changing. I like software that keeps doing what I installed it to do and nothing more.

[brokenmachine]

>Not that I know what other users want, but I want stuff that works reliably, does not slow down and does not need constant fixing. I prefer software that stays the same over software that is constantly changing. I like software that keeps doing what I installed it to do and nothing more.

This is exactly how I feel.

I think there are two camps - some people like shiny stuff for the sake of shiny stuff.

I want to perform the tasks I'm trying to perform as quickly and efficiently as possible. Often that means cli and custom scripts, if I need to use a GUI it's using the keyboard as much as possible and avoiding the mouse, and if I must use the mouse, then I have a lot of custom buttons mapped and/or ahk scripts.

When I see people entering username/password and not knowing that you can tab to get to the next field, I die a little inside. These are people who work on a computer every single day, but they never thought to look into increasing their efficiency on said computer, even for the most basic of tasks that they might do 50x per day.

[danuker]

How would you know you are doing something inefficiently, so that you can look into it?

And where would you look?

[Salgat]

The situation with Windows is nothing like this. When I upgraded my shitty netbook from XP to 7, magically my audio started working again (and I didn't have to touch a single driver) and it actually ran faster, even compared to a clean install of XP. The driver situation was huge and 7/10 perform very well. OS X on the other hand, I have no idea what they are doing that slows older computers so much while adding very little value.

Microsoft actually has a performance and user experience incentive to make their OS work well on older hardware. With Apple they can just force you to upgrade, consequences be damned.

[ivan1783]

Have to partially disagree here. Remember Windows XP? Do you want to go back to that after having used W10? In W10 everything just...works. Think about how much time you spent fucking around with drivers or registry settings or TCP/IP settings or whatever to get things to work in XP, all of that is gone in W10. I can do a fresh install in 2 hrs and the computer is back to "like new" and not have to spend an additional 4 hours on drivers and updates and configuration. For me, OS updates have been nothing but a positive (lets set security/privacy aside).

[1vuio0pswjnm7]

"Do you want to go back to that after having used W10?"

I have seen this type of reply repeatedly in response to any comment that some software or the web was a better experience in the past. In this case, it ignores the point being made which is not that the past was better, it is that upgrading hardware while not upgrading software is a much nicer user experience than upgrading software without upgrading hardware, or upgrading both at the same time (buying a new computer). The former was and still is stymied by companies like Microsoft and now Apple. Plus we have to contend with "business strategies" like planned obsolesence and "automatic upgrades". Arguably W10 was a "forced" upgrade, minimising if not eliminating any user choice. IMHO, we as users miss out on the full enjoyment of improvements in hardware because developers usurp those improvements for themselves. The user's computer resources are donated to the OS developer, without any prior permission from the user. That is the price of having the OS pre-installed,

[ivan1783]

You make a slightly different point, perhaps I missed the original point of the comment. I agree with you that upgrading HW without SW is much nicer than SW without HW. No argument there.

[joombaga]

I often do want to go back to XP, yes. My experience is approximately the inverse of yours. W10 is better for included drivers for sure. I've had to do many more registry and group policy changes on W10 than I ever needed in XP. Sometimes it feels like the GUI is lying to me about how the system can be configured. The most obvious example is that from the Windows Update GUI is appears updates can only be delayed temporarily, and must be completed before another temporary delay. This isn't the case; they've broken the connection between GUI and the settings, then lied about the existence of the setting. This isn't entirely new (95/98/XP had TweakUI), but it feels more deceptive or controlling now vs. just not exposing a feature. The cumulative updates are a huge improvement.

[MonkeyClub]

> I can do a fresh install in 2 hrs

I can do a fresh install of OpenBSD in 5 minutes.

However I won't have to, because unlike Windows 10, the system doesn't gradually rot over time.

[strken]

Can you expand on this? I can't remember ever having a registry problem caused by XP itself, nor any issues with TCP/IP. Drivers are a fair call, though.

[ivan1783]

Nothing caused by XP itself, mostly issues which come up that seemed (at least to me - as a non-SW guy) to be connected with the immaturity of XP. Its been some years but I remember often playing around in the TCP/IP panel to fix internet issues when setting up new wifi networks - this seems to just work in W10. I don't mean special networks with static IPs or some special configurations, I mean just moms network at home. Today its very plug and play. Concerning registry it was the same - no issues concerning XP specifically but I remember having to change a lot of things in there to get things to work how I wanted them. Seems these settings are just in a menu now in W10. Its more a user experience thing rather than specific bugs or issues.

[wyager]

It's such a breath of fresh air to run a barebones OS that hasn't become corpulently bloated over the last few decades. This basically restricts you to slim server-oriented operating systems like {Open,Free}BSD and a small number of Linux distros. Everything feels lightning fast. Of course, if you need to use a web browser or something the benefit disappears.

[LargoLasskhyfv]

Of course, if you need to use a web browser or something the benefit disappears.

Nope.

[blagie]

I would love nineties Debian, with modern hardware support and security patches.

[michaelmrose]

So basically void linux plus trinity (TDE) or mate for the continuation of kde 3 or gnome 2.

There is an issue to package TDE for void and it apparantly can be built.

https://www.trinitydesktop.org/

https://github.com/void-linux/void-packages/issues/19243

[blagie]

I used things like twm or fvwm at the time. in 2021, xmonad works well.

My concern, though, is that:

1) I've never seen modern "lightweight" distros work well. There isn't critical mass, and it's always my wifi or bluetooth or something. In the nineties, there were Linux HOWTOs. In 2021, there's always some kludge written by Ubuntu wrapping some kludge written by Red Hat wrapping some half-baked API and no documentation.

2) The instant you run an app, you lose all the upside. Firefox or Chrome can eventually eat up all available memory. Most apps are super-bloated, e.g. written in JavaScript/electron, and distributed in some containerized VM or some nonsense like that. If you skim out the 5% between apps and iron, it just doesn't help much.

3) Dependencies. If you want Bluetooth sound....

Is void better? Or does it somehow address this?

[michaelmrose]

TLDR: It works for me which doesn't mean it works for you depending on your needs.

I use "apps" like firefox emacs mpd mpv not electron crap and it works well enough for me. I don't need anyones kludges to run well behaved native apps in their intended environment. Seems like you would be liable to experience hassle to the degree you decide to make it complicated.

Sound working on supported hardware hasn't been a problem in over a decade. Bluetooth is dicier but for example I didn't have much trouble using it for example on my thinkpad where its useful for a small portable wireless mouse to talk to the laptop. I've honestly never used it on my desktop. I still think it 99% comes down to supported hardware not distro.

Honestly although I've had working bluetooth sound I have entirely switched away from bluetooth because sound quality at least on affordable hardware is much crappier than wired. People that must have wireless especially because their phone doesn't have a port are selling Bose QC25 for $75 all day long. I bought a pair that I plan on using for the next decade. Look at the more recent competition. For $300 for the QC35 I could depending on audio codec have a differing degree of worse sound from noticeably worse to almost as good with a specialized battery that is going to crap out a few years and eventually need major surgery.

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Bose+QuietComfort+35+Battery+Re...

As bad as the difficulty to replace is the fact that its built in and not hotswappable so if you forget to charge it then its down for the count. It's dead Jim. With my qc25 I pop in a freshly charged bog standard NIMH AAA for days of use and if it dies I swap in another. When they no longer charge into the trash they go and I get a replacement from anywhere. If none are at hand it still works just sans noise cancellation.

It's also easier to switch between an always connected set of headphones and speakers instead of a script shuttling everything between pulseaudio sinks and switching the default it now just needs to toggle which alsa output is muted a trick that worked 18 years ago.

It's like a microcosm of why new isn't better.

On the topic of firefox I've noticed the run away eat all your memory issue seems to be highly correlated with having a bunch of addons but I did learn a handy thing before I realized this. Userspace oom daemons. Something like earlyoom kicks in WAY faster than the oom killer with configurable targets. This means an out of control firefox trivially meets a fiery death instead of your session.

[blagie]

Well, I do have a job. I don't have complete control over what I use, since I'm not comfortable tenured/retired/living a life of leisure. There are tools I need to use. One of those was at 14gb when I was writing this message, so I could communicate with my coworkers.

For Bluetooth, I like a cheap set of headphones I bought for <$10 from some random Chinese seller. It's luck-of-the-draw, but these work well. People hear me well, and I hear them well. I don't need audiophile grade -- for that, I'd rather use my speakers. When the batteries die, I'll buy another set.

The nice thing about Bluetooth is that I can be gardening, cleaning, or otherwise keep my hands engaged during meetings. I find I focus a lot better if I'm not sitting at a computer.

I do have some fancier headsets for entertainment use, but those are not for work use. As a footnote, all the Bose headsets I've used have almost uselessly bad microphones.

I wasn't familiar with earlyoom. Thank you. That will be a game changer, if it works as I expect it will.

[salamandersauce]

I'm pretty sure the QC35s still work fine as normal headphones with the battery dead and 3.5mm cable. That's how my Sony WH-1000XM3s work. You only need to turn them on to use noise canceling or have them be Bluetooth. They also quick charge giving a couple hours usage in a few minutes of usage. It's a bit of a tradeoff but the convenience is IMO worth it.

[AlfeG]

I've updated my old home PC to windows 10. It's a two core Athlone with 1 gig of ram. And it still usable. Quite long to load, but can run Chrome.

[o8r3oFTZPE]

"I had Windows computers back in the day, late 90s, where I only upgraded the hardware, not the OS."

How would that be possible since Windows almost invariably came pre-installed by OEMs. New hardware would have the latest Windows version pre-installed. Downgrading would be extremely difficult if not impossible.

[dredmorbius]

My understanding is that Sceptre/Meltdown mitigations significantly slow processors due to reduced speculative execution, and perhaps more integrity tests against attacks.

That's something that's near-universal across AMD64 / Intel architectures, regardless of OS.

https://www.howtogeek.com/339559/how-to-stop-the-meltdown-an...

One view is to blame the mitigations.

Another is to recognise that the previous performance was itself a mirage, created by ignoring the risks presented by speculative execution (which had been long voiced, and long ignored by major CPU vendors).

[paulryanrogers]

Is it possible to disable these mitigations on Mac?

[dredmorbius]

It would be exceedingly unwise to do so.

[paulryanrogers]

Even on a single user system which doesn't run untrusted software?

[arepublicadoceu]

> Even on a single user system which doesn't run untrusted software?

If you use the web you run untrusted code all the time, unless you block js and never turn it on.

Unless you verify each code, on each software you run and build it yourself or have reproducible builds, then you run untrusted software.

I would only be comfortable disabling these mitigations if the computer were air-gaped and never touched the internet.

So yeah, it' unwise to disable these mitigations, but, in the end, it's your call.

[Tagbert]

does JavaScript really have the level of access to abuse these kinds of vulnerabilities?

[dredmorbius]

In the unlikely event that you're absolutely confident that's true, you should also be competent enough to find the answer on your own.

If the device is network-connected at all, or is exposed to any external devices or storage (drives, USB or other devices), it is running untrusted software.

[bzzzt]

As long as you keep Javascript disabled in your browser...

[fouc]

You should downgrade it back to MacOS 10.x version range. I'm still on 10.13 myself, I don't feel any strong urges to upgrade to Mojave or Catalina. If I stopped using homebrew and started using macports or pkgsrc I'd probably be even less bothered by needing to upgrade. (homebrew is pretty shitty with older OSes)

I'm also on a 2015 MBP that's still going strong. It's snappy and I'm happy. I upgraded the SSD last year, and that made a dramatic difference as well. Upgraded to 1TB, write speed jumped from 282 MB/s to 1321 MB/s, read speed jumped from 964 MB/s to 1505 MB/s. (2015 is the last year that Macbook Pros had upgradeable SSDs)

[tistoon]

I would like to upgrade my disk while keeping the OS version (clone?). Could you please tell me how did you do?

[fouc]

I cloned to a USB drive, swapped the SSDs, and then booted up with the USB drive, and cloned back to the new SSD.

--

You will need an NVMe SSD adapter similar to this https://www.amazon.com/Sintech-Adapter-Upgrade-2013-2015-Mac...

There's a whole thread writeup here: https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/upgrading-2013-2014-mac...

--

You can also download old versions of MacOS installers. I forget the link to the easier scripts/installers, there's a High Sierra one at http://dosdude1.com/highsierra/

Personally I ended up using ./installinstallmacos.py from https://github.com/munki/macadmin-scripts to grab the catalog contents

and then temporarily blocked swcdn.apple.com in /etc/hosts,

and then served the /content/ directory so that swcdn.apple.com/content/ was pointed at 127.0.0.1/content (I used python here in the parent directory of /content/) > sudo python -m SimpleHTTPServer 80

and then I opened the High Sierra MacOS app store specific link to make it download & assemble the .dmg file properly

Open in Safari to ensure it launches App Store https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/macos-high-sierra/id12462847...

Can use the same approach to grab other versions of MacOS downloaders from apple too if you look up the app store links for it and then serve the catalog locally I guess.

[Cockbrand]

I did the same with my 2015 MacBook Pro, and I'm still amazed that a $5 adapter and an Intel SSD are super fast and don't cause any problems at all. The machine sleeps, wakes, hibernates without any issues whatsoever. Also, I sold the original, well used Apple 1TB SSD for more than I paid for the brand new 2TB Intel SSD.

[AnonHP]

Not GP, but as others have described here, you can clone your entire disk to an external one (using an application like SuperDuper! or Carbon Copy Cloner), upgrade the internal disk, and the restore from the external clone.

When it comes to hardware upgrades of the DIY kind, iFixit (https://www.ifixit.com/) is a great resource with detailed instructions, photos and even videos on how to do them for different devices. The site also sells tools and parts, but you don’t necessarily have to buy from there. For SSDs, OWC (Other World Computing, https://eshop.macsales.com/) has tested parts available for many older Macs.

[avtar]

I've used SuperDuper (both, the free and paid versions) to do this in the past.

https://shirtpocket.com/SuperDuper/

[user3939382]

You have to poke around but there are ways to disable the update badges and checks, eg:

defaults delete com.apple.preferences.softwareupdate LatestMajorOSSeenByUserBundleIdentifier && softwareupdate --list

[bobbylarrybobby]

Also have the 2015 and Big Sur was also a shitshow for me performance wise (no serious bugs otherwise though). Updated to the Monterrey beta and it’s back to silky smooth. No idea what they screwed up in Big Sur, but it seems like they fixed it.

[konart]

Sometimes I feel like an alien with my late 2013 MBPr working all the same with the latest os.

[akg_67]

Yeah, same here. I am using 2012 rMBP and usually upgrade OS and update quickly after release. No significant issues with the machine. It is still chugging along on Catalina. Only issue in last 10 years was replacing battery once.

But I am waiting for Mx version of 15”+ MBP to upgrade, just need more storage and memory at this point for heavy duty work.

[Tagbert]

Yes, 2014 MBP on Big Sur. No performances issues.

I suspect that some of these cases of slowdown are a result of something getting messed up in the update or some non-standard process that is getting bogged down on Big Sur.

[riversflow]

Yeah. Same boat, mine (15" with dGPU, base spec) just keeps chugging. Never felt like an OS update affected it negatively. I've often wondered if it has to do with the Crystal Well L4 cache they put on these machines.

[amelius]

Put Linux on it.

[DanTheManPR]

A fresh install of Catalina was unusably slow on my 2010 Macbook pro (to say nothing of even trying Big Sur!). I had gone back and forth between MacOS and Linux on this machine over the years, and the Linux experience has been improving in comparison. Especially now that some apps are falling out of compatibility with High Sierra (the last version that ran acceptably on this hardware). And it's not as though you need to use a lightweight distro; regular Ubuntu works fine on old hardware. The focus on keeping everything lean and performant, while maintaining compatibility with older hardware, is a great advantage of modern linux distos.

Linux hasn't replaced my desktop workstation OS quite yet, but the last few years have definitely been "Year of the Linux Laptop" for me.

[amatecha]

Yeah, I got a 2009 MacBook Pro for free (or like $10 or something, I forget), and it's now running the latest FreeBSD. BSD, GNU/Linux and other open source OSes typically run great on MacBooks, and give them new life. Try it out!

[jwdunne]

Exact same situation. Couldn’t upgrade macOS whatsoever and it was slow as anything. Whacked Ubuntu on there and it’s running as good as new, outside of slow disk reads.

[amatecha]

Yeah! I actually dropped an old secondhand SSD in mine and it makes a huge difference. You'd never guess the machine is over a decade old other than the slightly bulkier form-factor and mediocre resolution, haha (and in fact I actually really like the keyboard compared to newer models!)

[handrous]

The newer butterfly keyboards got all the bad press (for good reason) but a while back I had to use one of the early aluminum models from when they were still thick enough to hold disc drives, for the first time in many years, and damn, I'd forgotten just how much worse the original slim driveless models' keyboards were, than those. Those were basically perfect, for a laptop.

[amatecha]

Yeah that's exactly what this 2009 model is, the nice thick keys that actually move quite some distance when you press them. So satisfying and tactile! Now when I try the latest MacBooks in an Apple Store it's like typing on nothing. Very strange feeling.

[Diederich]

Yup.

I've had a lot of luck putting Ubuntu on older Macbooks for quite a few years now. Works quite well.

[zsmi]

In my experience all software seems to slow down over time. Firstly, my expectations of "fast" change, but also all the various data structures a system needs to run grow and complicate. In addition we ask more of our software over time and run more of it.

For many, not even Ubuntu is immune. Hence articles like this:

https://www.techradar.com/how-to/how-to-speed-up-ubuntu-1804

[alwaysjoe]

Half of these tips have nothing to do with Ubuntu. Changing your SSD will do wonders for your Windows installation as well...

[mehphp]

Yep, I'm typing this on a '15 macbook pro with PopOS on it.

[jppope]

Apple is the master of planned obsolescence.

[lostlogin]

I see people say this but I can’t see that it it true. This current lockdown in New Zealand has 2011 and 2013 Macbook airs in daily use and they are working perfectly. There is an iPad 2 in daily use also.

Those devices have had hard lives.

I haven’t got any other electronics with anything approaching this longevity (unless you count espresso hardware). Presumably others are having a very different experience.

[ksec]

Because you happen to be using the good old Apple's MacBook. I mean a 2011 MacBook Air could still be sold for $120 2nd hand.

2016 Macbook has the worst reselling price out of all MacBook History. I think this tells a bit.

[Tarsul]

i basically can't use my ipad mini from 2012 anymore because the apps in the app store usually need a newer OS version than possible. A laptop from 2012 with Windows (whatever version) wouldn't have these problems whatsoever. I know it's another device type but it shouldn't really matter, both are computing devices.

[gambiting]

There are absolutely windows apps that won't run on your 2012 laptop too, it's just less likely you would run into them. Lack of DX 10 and higher APIs as well as lack of things like AVX instructions will prevent certain applications from running at all.

[dzhiurgis]

That's a 3rd party developer problem, not Apple problem. It's like blaming GM for not making leaded gasoline for your 1950s car.

[EpicEng]

I don't know how you can say this after looking at the state of android. Beyond that, my macbooks have _vastly_ outlived any Windows laptop I've ever owned.

[SilverRed]

Yeah this argument comes up constantly. Sure Apple does a lot of nasty stuff that should be banned. But when I look around at the rest of the market, everyone else is doing the exact same things but 10x worse.

I think Apple cops most of the blame for being the most recognizable name despite having the least planned obsolescence of the OEMs.

[GavinMcG]

They do a pretty bad job of it if it's planned. My '12 MacBook Air works great (aside from needing a new battery) and I can still boot plenty of even older Macs, going back to a Quadra.

[gambiting]

I'll do you one better - I still have a 2008 MacBook Pro that I use daily, it works fine. Also a 7 years old iPad Mini 2 that still gets security updates. Yes, planned obsolescence indeed.

[SilverRed]

I have Android tablets from 2014 and an ipad air 2 from 2014. The Android tablets haven't seen any updates since 2016 and are unusably slow while the iPad air 2 still gets the latest updates on day one with the brand new ipads and feels perfectly usable and sees daily use.

[ryneandal]

I disagree. My family's cost of electronics plummeted when I switched all of us to iOS. This is due to longer device lifetime and fewer broken devices.

Anecdotal for sure, but my kids and most Android devices lead to numerous broken electronics, be it screen, micro USB charging port issues, or detached SMDs. My 5 year old going into Kindergarten has been merciless to his iPad Mini and it is still trucking along, after multiple years. My OG iPad Pro is still my daily driver for media consumption and is going on six years old.

[mrweasel]

They really aren’t. They laptops last a very long time and you will be provided with OS upgrade way longer than you could reasonably upgrade most other laptops, while still have reasonable performance.

[inasio]

A bunch of people here are talking about having 2010-2015 Macs running, in contrast you don't see too many PC laptops of that vintage.

[Tagbert]

You seem to be ignoring all of the people who are posting here saying that their older MBPs are running Big Sur without performance impact. Obviously something is going on on those machines that are having performance issues, but it’s certainly not planned obsolescence or inevitable. There may some shared situation that is the cause for just those machines or they may each have their own issues causing a similar impact. Hard to tell without specifics.

[dzhiurgis]

Do you mean of master planners of recycling? Since rest of manufacturers mostly just make toxic plastic waste, not something that can be used 4x longer and then safely recycled...

[abledon]

my 2011 13" macbook pro, still chugging along... maybe there is Quality control issues on 2015->2021 models, but the 2011-2013 era seem good? less infatuation on thinnest laptop ever woo /s

[ksec]

If you dont upgrade the OS they cant claim their installation rate and push their new API along with other API depreciation. So generally speaking I am pro OS upgrade. But I do think they somehow turn off certain optimisation for older devices. It is the same with iPhone as well. i.e New OS is only optimised for current set / latest devices.

[twic]

I had this problem with my MacBook Pro, so i upgraded it to Linux. It's an early 2011 model, and still going strong!

[00deadbeef]

Every MacBook I’ve ever owned has ended up with a swollen battery

[eric_h]

I've "owned" (they were either mine or belonged to the company i worked for) many macbooks since they were ibooks and powerbooks and I've only had one end up with a swollen battery (a 2015 13" macbook pro)

#anecdata

edit: sample size is approximately 12 machines since the ibook was introduced

[riffic]

same here. It's a flaw inherent in the battery chemistry. Apple knows it happens, they should make it easy to swap batteries out when they expire.

[riffic]

you know, if expanding batteries were so problematic, why the heck does Apple glue them into the topcase?

[spullara]

To make the computer smaller and lighter.

[sudosysgen]

Permanently glued batteries are not any smaller and they are no lighter than strapped batteries with easily removed adhesives. It's a move to prevent repair.

[chrisseaton]

This conspiracy theory doesn't even make any sense. Guess who has to replace these batteries? Apple. Why would they make it harder for themselves without a good reason.

[samtheprogram]

Apple wants to perform the repairs so they can charge a premium. If batteries were easy to replace, consumers would do it themselves.

IIRC iOS even detects if a battery has been replaced regardless of whether it’s an authentic first-party battery and warns the user; Apple technicians use a tool to prevent these warnings for first-party repairs.

[SirZimzim]

The idea is that due to the special repair it will be costly enough to the point where you will opt for buying a new laptop.

It's $200 for a 2015 MacBook Pro for Apple to replace the battery. An aftermarket battery costs around $50 but it's tricky to install.

[chrisseaton]

> The idea is that due to the special repair it will be costly enough

But Apple has to replace the batteries and pay for it under their warranties, not you.

[fsflover]

What if I want to go to an independent repair shop to change my battery? Or even do it myself.

[chrisseaton]

Apple will do it for you.

So this isn't an argument against repair - it may be an argument against repair by third parties if you want to suggest that? But then again why would Apple make a job that they have to do harder? Doesn't pass a common-sense test.

[sudosysgen]

Apple choses which price to charge for a battery replacement. Their profit margin is whatever they choose unless other people are replacing it too.

[chrisseaton]

But they also have to do the repairs. When they make it harder they increase their costs.

[mbesto]

Disagree.

You can see for yourself:

Glued https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/noPvQ2CLs1jptX2p.med...

Removal battery https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/btDJQp5CYXdILTOO.med...

You get better battery performance, with higher CPU performance, better graphics, etc. etc. and save 8oz. in weight and nearly half the width.

Moore's law has tradeoffs. I think you can make the conclusion yourself with the facts.

EDIT: For the record - it financially benefits Apple to have an unremovable battery, but that doesn't mean its the only motivation.

[manigandham]

None of that is true. The battery cells are the rectangular black pouches. They can be glued in, placed in with a ribbon cable, put inside a plastic outer casing, or any other variation; but the batteries themselves are exactly the same form and function.

Given the hard metal body construction with screw fasteners, there's no reason for gluing the battery packs themselves.

[mbesto]

> but the batteries themselves are exactly the same form and function.

They are exactly not the same form:

https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/vlCsffdOoZSTCyJy.med...

https://guide-images.cdn.ifixit.com/igi/btDJQp5CYXdILTOO.med...

One is a big brick and the other is a set of 4 pouches carefully laid out to let connectors route to various parts of the motherboard. That is precisely NOT the exact same form.

Look at how intricate the battery replacement is for the newest MBPro:

https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+15-Inch+Touch+Bar+2...

There are various terminals that weave in and out of the batteries. That simply is not possible to maintain the same weight and thickness by just carving out one big removal brick as in the previous generation of the MBPro.

[sudosysgen]

This is hilarious. You're actually comparing two different computers.

A pull tab does not weigh 8oz more than a dab of glue. I don't get why someone would try to argue as much.

[mbesto]

> You're actually comparing two different computers.

Huh? One is the previous MBPro with a removable battery and the other is the latest version MBPro with a glued battery.

> A pull tab does not weigh 8oz more than a dab of glue. I don't get why someone would try to argue as much.

I didn't say that. I said the form factor for a glued in battery doesn't it allow it to be setup as a removable battery configuration.

Gotta love the armchair hardware engineers in here.

[riffic]

I'd prefer a system that was a bit more durable and also put the consumables in a place where they were easily accessed.

we've reached the point where all advantages to devices being smaller and lighter are diminished returns.

[mixedCase]

If you care about maintainability, you're just not the market Macbooks are optimized for.

While most brand-new laptops have unfortunately dropped externally removable batteries altogether, you can still find plenty that have internal user-replaceable ones.

At home I have a work-provided Dell Latitude, a Thinkpad T470 my SO uses and my own Thinkpad T490. Very happy with all of them 'cept mine has a shitty screen that I'm going to replace at some point.

[gambiting]

I refuse to accept that as an answer as to why the battery is glued in. It's just laziness by apple, there's is literally zero reason to use glue to hold the battery, and it means that if you want to ever replace it yourself you end up looking at a 50-steps long guide on ifixit where one of them is pouring solvent behind the battery - it's insane. Just have a system of tabs holding the battery packs in place, glue is not needed.

[Bud]

No, it's not laziness. Nothing about the internal design of the Mac is due to "laziness". Apple has clearly decided that the battery is better held in place by adhesive than by a "system of tabs". This could easily be for durability or safety reasons. It's a big, big problem if a battery gets damaged.

If your argument is that the replacement process has too many steps, this argument fails: you'd save at most one step (out of your claimed 50) if the adhesive were not there. Because the battery is not terribly accessible.

[traceroute66]

Apple batteries are glued for two reasons:

  - The aluminium laptop case is part of the battery.  In the old days there was a plastic case/shell around the battery cells. Now the laptop case is that shell.

  - It allows them to make the laptops thinner. When you are talking about the need to save millimeters here and there in order to have a very thin total design then you need to remove screws, tabs and stuff that pads up space.

[riffic]

Planned obsolescence and user hostility, got it.

[noduerme]

My 2015 Air has an easily replaceable battery. It's needed replacement once and only requires a screwdriver. That's good design. Gluing a battery in is only "good design" if you want to make it as difficult as possible for people to repair their own machines.

Heck, I still have MBPs that had hot swappable batteries. That was even better design.

[nescioquid]

> Apple has clearly decided that the battery is better held in place by adhesive ...

They decided to glue the battery down. You may assume that each decision by Apple seeks an optimum, so you concluded this decision was for the best. But better for whom -- Apple or the consumer?

Note also, that when I replace a battery that's been glued in, there are many more steps than for devices that aren't so glued down. Possibly because the people who designed it were thinking about repair and replacement scenarios.

[gambiting]

>>If your argument is that the replacement process has too many steps, this argument fails: you'd save at most one step (out of your claimed 50) if the adhesive were not there.

Thank you for making an assumption on my behalf, but that's actually not my argument - I do have an issue with the fact that replacing the battery requires pouring solvent behind the case, as the guide clearly warns you that if you mess this up you will damage other components and the screen. That's an unacceptable process for a battery replacement, I don't mind the disassembly of everything else to get to there. I will repeat myself - there is absolutely no reason to use glue in a case as tight as that of a modern MacBook.

[taylodl]

It's probably being done for ease of manufacturing. The bots can handle glue better than tabs and straps. Also, they can put batteries in every dead space available in the machine to maximize system battery life. I agree it's ridiculous you need to use a solvent, carefully, in order to remove the batteries. I suppose this is the state of the art for now?

[sudosysgen]

Glue is not protective. The only purpose of glue is to prevent the battery from moving around, which tabs and straps do perfectly well. The battery is protected by the metal casing and nothing else, glue or no glue.

[qq4]

This could easily be done for profit, as well!

[cmurf]

Yeah I'm over macOS, since 10.12, having used Apple OS's since System 6, sufferung years of not ready for prime time OSX but settled into that regime for almost 20 years. And now its Fedora Linux #1, Windows a distant #2, and then macOS.

The churn in macOS is annoying. A few year old version can't run the latest TeamViewer, I'm running into more of that now where on Windows 10 that's not even a thing (yet, maybe there will be a breakthrough with Windows 11).

shrug

[robertoandred]

Sounds like a TeamViewer problem.

[limeblack]

If you have an Apple store near by they'll set it up for dual boot. If you don't mind do it yourself partition and install the installer to thumb drive.

I don't condone piracy but you can download the old installers(get creative) md5 checksum it and simply reinstall the old OS. I am still running a 2012 macbook pro for video editing with final cut pro.

[officeplant]

You don't really have to pirate anything. Apple provides a guide for creating USB installers. Used it to bring my 2012 Mini back to Mojave recently.

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201372

[m_st]

I agree, same with my MBP at home. And I have the same issue with my 2015 XPS 15 at work which first was really fast, especially with Windows 10 and now feels slow for everything. Even though it is still running "Windows 10" (with Windows Update). Changed for the new XPS 15 with the new i7-11800H and couldn't be happier though.

[gdulli]

I got an iPhone in 2008 and 2 years later an OS update rendered it too slow to be usable. It annoyed me so much that it became the last Apple product I ever bought.

Every non-Apple smartphone I've had since then has remained usable until I was ready to replace it on my own timeline, even after as long as 4 years.

[ribosometronome]

What non-Apple smartphone were you getting in 2010 that received 4 years of updates? My experience at the time was essentially no updates, or relying on custom ROMs for that sort of thing.

[gdulli]

I think it was the Galaxy S4 that I had for 4 years, then the S8 for 3. I don't remember if/when updates stopped. I probably only had the phone I bought in 2010 for 2 years because back then they were still subsidizing new phone purchases at the 2 year mark.

[dudul]

That's funny I recently upgraded a 2013 mbp and it's a bit faster now.

[wellthisisgreat]

To Big Sur?

[dudul]

Yes and I find it snappier than before.

[vondur]

This sucks. From the original release of MacOS 10 until 10.6 or so, every version felt faster to me than the previous version. I looked forward to the next release. It felt like getting a new computer.

[Tagbert]

There must be something else going wrong with your MBP. You might want to wipe it and reset things up.

I’m running a 2014 MBP with Big Sur and it is no slower than on Catalina.

[rapind]

I would go one step further and say only give us security updates and bug fixes full stop.

Every update I’m less satisfied with my OS. I just want it to run other things and stay the hell out of my way.

[gkanai]

> When I upgraded my 2015 to Big Sur last year, it essentially became unusable because it ran so slowly.

Thank you for this. I haven't upgraded to Big Sur and now I never will.

[wallscratch]

I assume apple does this intentionally :)

[wellthisisgreat]

I have an MBP2013 with Catalina and it’s been smooth sailing, good to know I shouldn’t upgrade to Mojave even

[everyone]

It seems like they intentionally throttle older models as a feature of the update.. They do it on their phones at least.

https://www.phonearena.com/news/how-to-make-iphone-faster_id...

[Bud]

No, they do not, and that's an outrageous, silly, completely unsupported accusation.

Apple also does not "intentionally throttle" older iPhones as a "feature of the update" for some sort of nefarious bullshit "planned obsolescence" reason. The opposite is true: Apple reduces the clock speed very very slightly on older iPhones, so that they can be used LONGER and have a LONGER service life. The alternative would be, when the battery is starting to lose capacity, just having the iPhone randomly shut down. This would quite obviously be an inferior outcome for the user, so Apple thoughtfully checks for reduced battery performance in aging devices and reduces clock speed slightly to save power if necessary.

Apple's reward for this? Literally YEARS of bullshit, bad-faith, poorly-researched lying stories in the tech media about how they are supposedly "forcing" users to buy new devices, when in fact, they are enabling iPhones to last even longer. Anyone with any clue knows, of course, that iPhones receive many years more software updates than competing products, and are also in service for years longer than competing products, but somehow, this BS narrative has still taken hold, likely because many folks are lazy, desperate for any excuse to slam Apple, credulous, and don't really care what the truth is.

[salamandersauce]

Because they didn't tell ANYBODY there were doing this. Did they give a pop up explaining that your phone was being throttled because the battery was degraded? No. Did they announce this "feature" at WWDC one year? No. Take your iPhone to a Genius complaining it was slow? Did they recommend you just replace the battery? No, they recommend you buy a new one.

Part of the problem is that Apple stuck too small batteries in their devices for years so they degraded fast. They KNEW they were making the phone slow for users in 2-3 years. Having a slow phone IMO is more of push to replace a phone than a bit worse battery life.

[SilverRed]

The original hate on this was very much justified for the reasons you listed. But these days they now have prompts explaining this and how to resolve it as well as a battery status page you can check any time.

[salamandersauce]

Yes. As result of them getting caught hiding it and being sued.

[IncRnd]

Hopefully, Apple learned from their experience.

By the way, isn't it nice when the hardware manufacturer doesn't degrade performance on failing hardware but instead tells the user?

[Bud]

Honestly, I think the best alternative in this case would have been to degrade performance (btw, it's a very very slight degradation that most users would not even notice in routine use) and also inform the user.

But I agree with you, in that I do hope Apple has learned from this ordeal. I just wanted to speak out against what I see as very unfair, bad-faith attacks.

[FireBeyond]

And yet many many people absolutely noticed it.

[darksaints]

Apple lost it's lawsuit because they throttled phones when they reached a battery health level that was higher than the threshold for warranty replacement. Thousands of users, including myself, had a nearly new phone throttled and so we went to apple and asked them to replace the battery if it was going bad. They wouldn't. And so they got dragged through the mud because they fucking deserved it.

[PolCPP]

Because someone decided it was better to be opaque on the iPhone and do that than do the same thing they had on macs and throw a warning when the battery was on bad state.

At least all the drama ended with having a warning and a toggle for battery status.

[wolpoli]

> Apple reduces the clock speed very very slightly on older iPhones

On an iPhone 6s, the performance decreased by 42%. That's not how I would characterize very very slightly.

[whoisburbansky]

Your linked article is entirely about the phone. Do you have any sources about them intentionally throttling older computer models?