[stickfigure]

This is a twisted form of whatabboutism. Every lineage of humans has a sordid history. None of those people are alive now; what matters is what the people who are alive today do.

The crusades a thousand years ago do not justify jihad today. "The West" has come a long way. It's not hypocritical to want the rest of the world to catch up.

[shkkmo]

How is it "whataboutism"? This isn't saying "america is bad because history" it is saying that the history of america shoes that democracy can function even with pretty limited application of liberal values.

[shadilay]

It seems the crusades are always referenced but rarely in their historical context.

[quetzthecoatl]

>This is a twisted form of whatabboutism.

As if that's a valid criticism. What about your whataboutism? hehe.

You wrote about western countries and especially US having protections that make your democracy enlightened - especially citing bill of rights that protects the rights of everyone. To which I pointed out that you had genocide of natives, slavery of Africans, oppression of women, sexual minorities etc when bill of rights was in full force. Point being that not only are you wrong about west being equal, but also about having these protection would actually mean anything.

>The crusades a thousand years ago do not justify jihad today.

No where did i say it does. You are literally making stuff up. How does you lot doing genocide and slavery in US justify Taliban blowing up whatever they find unislamic in their narrow definition of pure islam? None of the examples I used went far back to 1000 years, why even bring it up?

As for ignoring this happened in the past - Axe doesn't remember, the tree does. You can conveniently forget horrific events in the past when you benefited from it or you did it (whatever that "you" identity is). You might say the genocide of natives was in the past, so shouldn't matter, but the native americans would definitely beg to differ.

btw where do you draw the line? 500 years? 100 years? 10 years? yesterday? Of the genocide, slavery, segregation, wars to spread christianity and/or stop communism - what according to you is beyond the statute of limitations on moral responsibility?

>"The West" has come a long way. It's not hypocritical to want the rest of the world to catch up.

It really hasn't. The latest nightmare that is unfolding in Afghanistan, is created by west. The rest of the world can't catch up when you keep destabilizing it.

[benque]

What exactly do you want to do with past events? At least in the west (I am a South Asian) they document it and possibly learn from it / incorporate it in studies (Germany). Would you rather have the Chinese method of whitewashing or completely censoring past (bad) events? There is pretty much no empire in history which hasn't tried to expand, coerce, or otherwise influence weak states, so going back hundreds of years is pure uselessness. Take China for example - Do you think the current generation of Chinese bother about failures of CCP during the cultural revolution or would they be happy about what the CCP has achieved in the last 30 years?

Also, learn about what happened in Afghanistan from 1975 - You'll find that it has evolved into a proxy war between many parties, but was started by an Afghan president seeking help from Soviets.

[quetzthecoatl]

>What exactly do you want to do with past events?

Reconciliation, reparations and justice.

>Lot of talk about China

Why is it US or China? It's just two countries. There are so many other way to do things. Why do you conclude that other than US' way, the only other way is China's way?

>Also, learn about what happened in Afghanistan from 1975 - You'll find that it has evolved into a proxy war between many parties, but was started by an Afghan president seeking help from Soviets.

Good one. How does Afghan president Soviet help justify America and Pakistan creating Taliban to destabilize Afghanistan? How is it America's business? Every sovereign nation has the right to seek help from whosoever they like. It's none of America's concern. But no, that won't be. Taliban has to be created to bring down a government that dared to seek Russia's help. I am not saying then afghanistan govt was all good. I am saying that doesn't justify US/UK destabilizing Afghanistan and creating Taliban with the help of Pakistan.

I have no idea what your identity has to do with your points. So, i am just gonna ignore all that except the "South Asian" bit. It's hard for me to take anyone seriously that uses that term. South America and North America actually mean something. They are real geographical entities in the south and north. It's just plain stupidity to call India, Pakistan and Bangladesh as "South Asia". All of Arab states, Iran, Pak, India, Bangladesh, Myanmar all the way to Vietnam is South Asia.

[benque]

Where did I say that any of the events in Afghanistan is justified? My point is, the reality in Afghan has many sides, and none of them look good. Blaming one party is stupid. Also America didn't "create" Taliban - again you make inaccurate points. One faction fighting the civil war eventually became the Taliban and then were supported by ISI. The US had no role after Soviet withdrawal (until 2001).

"Reconciliation, reparations and justice" - yeah ideally. But how many years will you go back? And who exactly will accept their mistakes and fix? I mentioned China, US because these are the powerful entities now, along with Russia. If these countries can't accept responsibility for the issues they created, then no other country will because its politically infeasible.

Identity doesn't relate to my points as such. But you are simply blaming the "west" for all troubles and ignoring the acts of others in these conflicts. I mentioned "South Asian" as an addendum to point out that I am not merely defending my region.

First understand the complexities involved, rather than making absurd statements such as "America created Taliban". Then argue your points.

[quetzthecoatl]

It would be absurd to suggest that America created the people who became taliban - obviously their parents did. I doubt any of them are americans. I guess that part of obvious, and i am sorry that i didn't make it clear. What I meant was that it was US with their attack dogs in the area, ie pakistan, who gave money, training and weapons to them.

There are complexities to every situation anywhere.

PS: America created Taliban. ISIS too.

[benque]

Start from here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm-333

(Hint - It was the Soviets who went with their guns blazing to Kabul setting off a series of events causing instability.)

Beyond that, your reading comprehension isn't good enough for further arguments.

[whycombinatore]

The events in Afghanistan started from Sour revolution, which went sour. That's when USSR was invited to the scene by the Afghan president. So is it east or west that started trouble? In general, its empires that attempt to take of advantage of weak states - be it USSR, US, China. If you go back arbitrarily in time, then, yeah, everyone were barbarians.

[quetzthecoatl]

Yeah, USSR's help was sought out by Afghanistan. How does it concern US? As a sovereign republic, it's Afghanistan's right to self govern seeking help from whoever she pleases. It's none of US' business.

As for history and barbarians. In the last 300 years, US have eclipsed whatever injustices others have done in thousands of years. If we include the whole of western hemisphere, it's not even comparable. There is no other civilization that matches the horrific evils that the "enlightened western civilization" did even remotely. You lot wiped off entire natives from multiple continents. Did mass murder in other continents. Followed it up with slavery. I could go on, but even chengiz khan looks like an emo kid if you look at the evil and barbarity of western history.

[ecnerwala]

And yet you stand in a 1 KM queue to get a visa to the "west". :P

[quetzthecoatl]

touchy. i really touched a nerve huh? why the smiley at the end though.

>And yet you stand in a 1 KM queue to get a visa to the "west". :P

How else are we going to destroy you from within? :P