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by atoav 1763 days ago
I don't think the two choices described are the only choices available. The point of a democracy is that — if the people are unhappy with those ruling them — they can change those in power without a revolution, civil wars or similar violence. Such a change is hardly imaginable with radical islamist powers.

This principle of being able to get rid of those you voted in is more important in a democracy than the actual representation of the "will of the people", because the "will of the people" can change and so the people should not be allowed to make a democratic choice that robs them, the oppositions and the coming generations of their future democratic rights. This is what we in Germany call "wehrhafte Demokratie" ("militant democracy").

If your democracy can be lost by voting in facists or religious nuts it is not a sufficiently enough militant democracy, seperations of powers didn't work as intended etc. Democracies should be designed for this case in mind, not for the normal "we have leaders who are a tad bit corrupt but things are otherwise ok"-case.

So every nation should be able to vote in whoever they please, but those voted in should not have the power to abolish democracy, human rights, etc. because it, is not their right fundamentally.

This is why one can be for democracy in a state and at the same time be against certain antidemocratic powers that will ignore, circumvent, undermine democratic guarantees like the ones mentioned. But the whole discourse is quite old already and had been well discussed by Karl Popper: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Should we tolerate the intolerant in a tolerant society? No. Not even if they are the majority.

2 comments

But who will be the tolerance police? If a majority votes for something that is intolerant, does that give an outside faction the right to start bombing them until they vote the right way?
In a true liberal democracy, the people themselves enforce these rights. The people must of course preserve some spirit of resistance, which provides the "militant" twist in parent's description of a "militant democracy".
While the German constitution says that all Germans have the right to resist against anyone seeking to abolish democratic fundamentals, there's not really a provision for it to be by violent means.

It's not "militant democracy", it does not point to the means, but to the idea that it's not possible to abolish democracy by legal means. It's a legal concept, not a plan to follow in case of emergency.

But what if they don't? A lot of countries in the middle east are profoundly not liberal. If things play out in an un-liberal/intolerant way, do we step in and "fix" them so that they meet our own standards?
No. You got to eatablish structures that can resist voting the wrong people, this means mostly seperation of powers and a working law system. Political movements that have direct military and jurisdictive power can only be voted out if they feel like it. Political powers that have enough military power to break the seperation of power can then force courts with weaponpower to decide their way.

So democracy is not about "letting people vote" it is about establishing a system that resists attemptet power grabs an keeps power in the hands of the voters should they want to vote people out.

The day the party in power can just ignore/fake the result of an election without consequences is the day a democracy started dying.

Who decides who is intolerant?
Intolerance in Popper's sense has a different connotation than we might be used to today. The thinking of Karl Popper is heavily influenced by the horrors of the holocaust where people where denied rights, quartered up, shot or gassed based on being in the oposition, having the wrong ideology, religion, skin color, relatives, friends, gender identity, sexuality, etc. So for Popper this was not some vague undecidable "what is intolerance anyways"-kind of word, but bound to really harsh existential inhumane cruelties.

I guess we can agree that people who want others killed or at least surpressed like that do count pretty much as intolerant under regular free society standards. So in other words: intolerant people are people who can't be bothered to tolerate sharing their existance with other people who mind their own bussiness.

So: the definition of the word "intolerance" decides who is intolerant. And of course intolerant people will argue that they aren't (because that is not a nice attribute to get branded with, even if it is true) and therefore they try to change the meaning of "tolerance" in their image. And of course some people will claim intolerance where the definition won't justify it, because they feel it gives them an advantage in a given situation and therefore try to change the definition of "tolerance" into their direction. Ultimately like any codified law it would be a matter of presedence etc.

The ones with the power to decide or power to yield that power to another, as what already happens anywhere you go. You can't murder someone for slighting you, that would be intolerant in US law. Don't like it, yield power to change the law.
> You can't murder someone for slighting you, that would be intolerant in US law.

Yeah, they'll just put you in a cage, next to Julian.