[crazy_horse]

It speaks to the power of belief in something. Napoleon represented something bigger than a person, he was French nationalism.

I think a similar story (this is in Ken Burn's doc, told by Shelby Foote) is when the Union forces at Fredericksburg took the city and then sent wave after wave of soldiers at the Confederate held hills with a wall at the base of them. I don't recall how many waves it was (10+), but it's difficult to imagine being in the sixth or seventh wave, watch man after man before you walk into a "wall of lead" and decide to do it anyway.

How many people today have that kind of conviction? We can't get people to wear masks.

[fladrif]

Oh but interestingly isn't that a kind of conviction itself? They've been fed some kind of idea of 'freedom' that they now strongly adhere to until death (I assume a lot of anti-mask are also anti-vaccine and are now the ones dying in the hospitals).

If you look at American politics over the past 5 years, trump has almost become another napoleon in how fervent the support he has, and how the idea of 'freedom' has held.

[glofish]

Excellent point, arguably NOT wearing a mask takes a lot more conviction than wearing it.

if you believe wearing a mask benefits you then there is no need for "conviction", it is just a belief and the person is trying to maximize their own benefit

[ngcc_hk]

Or others. Especially the heavy load to hosiptal system if one get sicks. There are two forces in live - self preservation and passion for others. Left and right coexist in one. That is the fundamental issue in life.

[Clubber]

>We can't get people to wear masks.

It's because we have weak, ineffective, self serving leadership, and have since probably LBJ.

People fight and die for a cause, what in the US is worth fighting and dying for for the average Joe? Constant surveillance, harassment by the state police, corrupt politicians, corrupt justice system, income inequality, shit healthcare, shit schools, shit housing, shit food, shit safety net, regressive taxes, massive debt given to the rich, bailouts for banks, foreclosures for the people, eroded civil rights, eroded constitutional rights? You have the American dream, then you have the American reality. I mean we reap what we've sewn for the last 40+ years. If we really had a serious existential military threat, where we had to reinstate the draft, I'm not sure how strong our response would be because of all this. Who wants to die for Amazon.com or Walmart or AT&T's profit? I mean the American way of life, as it stands today, how would you feel if you had to send your conscripted sons and daughters to die to protect it?

[bruceb]

US has plenty of problems, is still better than many countries. Ask all the people who move here, they generally will be a lot more optimistic about the US.

[Gollapalli]

>still better than many countries.

Who the hell wants to kill and die for "still better than many countries?" If you think your country is worth keeping, you need a positive vision for that country.

[Clubber]

>Ask all the people who move here, they generally will be a lot more optimistic about the US.

Here's the top 10 countries of origin for immigration to the US in 2018 (before COVID). We can assume people who immigrate to the US do it for a better life than the country they came from. Notice there aren't any "developed" countries in this list. Care to guess what that says about the US?

Mexico - 161,858, Cuba - 76,486, China - 65,214, India - 59,821, Dominican Republic - 57,413, Philippines - 47,238, Vietnam - 33,834, El Salvador - 28,326, Haiti - 21,360, Jamaica - 20,347

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/us-immigr...

[nradov]

The US has a positive net migration rate with every other major developed country. More people move to the US from Australia, France Germany, Finland, Canada, etc than go the other way. Care to guess what that says about the US?

https://www.un.org/en/development/desa/population/migration/...

[Clubber]

Tell me what you think it says. I can think a lot of reasons why that would be the case, including unwillingness to learn a foreign language, requirement to pay US taxes as an expatriate, immigration level differences between countries as well as population difference.

[Ancapistani]

> Notice there aren't any "developed" countries in this list. Care to guess what that says about the US?

Well, it says that there aren’t many “developed” countries where emigrants can walk to the US.

[env123]

Four in those countries are newly industrialized. They may be not "developed" yet, but they are getting there. I hate this **king division of countries into first world, third world, etc. There are certain cities in a "shithole" country that are far richer and better in certain neighborhoods in a "first-world" country around the world. Anyway, people don't immigrate to the U.S. to be happy - they get there to get better money for their skills, and then come back to visit their home countries on vacation to be "happy"

[Clubber]

>I hate this *king division of countries into first world, third world, etc.

You're getting your nomenclature discombobulated. During the Cold War, first world was US and her allies. Second world was the USSR and her allies. Third world was all the others. Third world got branded as "shitholes," because they didn't have support from the superpowers and the superpowers tended to intervene in their local politics, or steal resources, etc.

>There are certain cities in a "shithole" country that are far richer and better in certain neighborhoods in a "first-world" country around the world.

Yes, most of the US by land mass would be considered a "shithole," by many people including myself, that was my original point. People in non "shithole" countries come here far less than countries who are worse off than us. That puts us in a pretty low point on the "great countries to live" scale. Somewhere slightly above Cuba and China. In most of the US, the economic prospects are grim and the federal support is near non-existent. The US is ok if you are the top 20-30% of earners, otherwise, it's pretty crappy. It wasn't always like this.

https://www.google.com/search?q=boarded+up+small+town+usa&tb...

[Clubber]

Good luck walking from Cuba, China, India, Dominican Republic, Philippines, Vietnam, Haiti, and Jamaica

[nradov]

People from those other countries frequently travel to Mexico first, then illegally cross the US border from there.

https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/immigration/sd-me-...

https://www.dw.com/en/entering-us-via-mexico-why-are-so-many...

[adventured]

> eroded civil rights

Civil rights in the US have been massively improved since the 1960s and 1970s. Even the prison population has been declining, finally, for about 12 years now. The war on drugs is ending.

You actually think eg black people or gay people are worse off in the US today than they were 30, 50, 70 years ago? It's an absurd premise. Just 30 years ago you couldn't even be publicly gay in Hollywood (left leaning Hollywood) or your career was toast. Gay people were widely culturally oppressed as recently as the 1980s and 1990s. Today Ellen is just about the biggest TV host in the country. Black people in the 1960s had something closer to no civil rights at all. Today the US has widespread protected class status for minorities, which wasn't the case as recently as the 1980s. In 1970 you could fire someone specifically for being a woman, or black, or gay, or just about anything else. You were largely free to mistreat today's protected classes to almost any degree you saw fit. Sexism in the workplace wasn't frowned upon as recently as the 1980s, there was no serious legal recourse, it was the status quo and almost universally tolerated. Try operating an office or business that way today, see what happens.

Or if you want to test things out culturally (litmus test it), go on LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and go on a bunch of racist tirades. Use your real name and professional networks. See what happens to you professionally over time. You'll become an instant pariah.

Nearly across the board things are far better from a civil rights standpoint than in decades past. Both culturally and in terms of government. The primary exception remaining is minimum mandatory sentencing laws, which have been around for decades now.

> income inequality

There's absolutely nothing new about that. Go back to 1890 or 1920, income inequality was higher then than it is now. The US had a very brief period of time, lasting roughly only 20 years, where income inequality dropped lower.

> foreclosures for the people

There's absolutely nothing new about that. If you don't pay your mortgage, you get foreclosed on. That was true in 1960. It's true now. It should be true. The opposite is insanity.

> corrupt justice system

Whatever that means.

> harassment by the state police

The police were even worse 50 years ago than they are today. They were more violent, far more oppressive to minorities, and 100% got away with it. Their margin for getting away with abuse has declined considerably, despite propaganda to the contrary.

> corrupt politicians

True in most any nation that has ever existed or will ever exist.

> shit healthcare

US healthcare quality is closer to the OECD median. It's in fact not shit. It is exceptionally expensive for being at the median however. In the US it's the value proposition due to cost that is shit, not the actual quality of the healthcare.

> shit food

A bizarre, empty claim. The US is one of the most diverse nations in world history with one of the most elaborate consumer markets. You can eat whatever food you like.

> shit safety net

The US spends more of its economy on its social safety net than Canada or Australia. It has a lower homelessness rate than many of its prominent peers, precisely because its safety net is not shit (even if it's also not in the top tier).

> regressive taxes

The US has one of the most progressive tax systems in the developed world. It's far more progressive than Scandinavia by comparison. The US middle class pays exceptionally low taxes, which is one of the reasons the US middle class also has among the world's highest disposable income figures - comparable only to nations like Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland and Norway.

> massive debt given to the rich

No idea what that's supposed to mean. US households are in good financial condition compared to most of their affluent peers around the world.

> shit schools

Obviously far too comprehensive of a claim. The US has 17 of the top 20 universities in the world, give or take a position. Its top 100 universities are collectively unrivaled by the rest of the world. There is nobody close. The rest of the world has spent the entire post WW2 era trying to catch up to and mimic the US university outcome.

> shit housing

Plain false. US housing remains more affordable than housing in peer nations. Americans are able to buy larger, cheaper housing than their peers can. When it comes to having a ridiculous amount of space at a decent price, only a few developed nations compare to the US.

[Clubber]

I would agree with you with the gay and LGBTQ community, but I think you're off base on the rest of it. Also I wouldn't put Hollywood up as a good example as what's good with the US culturally.

I mean we don't lynch black people anymore, so hu-rah USA? We don't use child labor anymore (at least in country) so hu-rah USA? Instead of brutalizing black protestors, the police brutalize protestors in an equal opportunity fashion. Hu-rah USA. We're only as economically inequitable as the 1920's robber baron era, hu-rah USA. I suggest you try to expand your view a little and see what the WHOLE country really is like.