> Sad to see smart people talking about "consent" when public health is in danger.
It's really not difficult at all to see how "public health" taking precedence over anything can very easily lead to government overreach that is unwarranted.
I get frustrated with antivaxxers not necessarily because they are against mandates, but because their arguments for not getting vaccinated are complete and utter nonsense.
You're right. There are also edge cases that seem to get lost in the mania of one side or the other.
What if you've already had Covid and recovered? The data seems a lot less certain about whether the vaccine is a clear advantage over the natural antibodies that you have from a natural recovery.
What if you genuinely have allergies or other issues that might cause serious complications with receiving a vaccine? People like this definitely do exist.
Those issues are both real. Alas, it's also tough to prove for certain that somebody is in one of those buckets and not making something up because they're afraid of the vaccine.
It's grossly unfair to say that someone who doesn't want a Covid vaccine is antivaxx. There are a plenty of legitimate reasons one might not get the covid vaccine.
There is a difference between being anti-vaccine, meaning that you are against all vaccines, and being hesitant to receive a specific vaccine. Most people I know who are still waiting to receive the covid vaccine are all caught up on the typical vaccines and may even get the flu shot every year.
Most people in the antivaxx community are willing to take some vaccines. Being 100% anti vaccination was never the core issue.
Random article on the subject: You can essentially break anti-vaxxers into two groups, says Tim Caulfield, the Canada Research Chair in health law and policy at the University of Alberta. The first consists of full-on disbelievers who make up somewhere between two and five per cent of the population, depending on which study you look at. Their minds won’t be changed. The second group — somewhere between 20 and 30 per cent of Canadians — is for what some now call the vaccine-hesitant. They may get some of the required vaccinations for their children, but not all of them.https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/who-are-the-anti-vaxxer...
"Oh I'm totally for vaccine, but not the one that went through full trials and helps stopping the actual pandemic going on right now, nope, that one is a no go better people keep dying when we could stop it"
The normal sequence of tests aren’t about human safety for the general public their about human safety of the test subjects in the clinical trials including primates. So they did pre clinical trials like this one, but they did fast track to primate testing. https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.08.280818v1
At this point we have more data on COVID vaccinations than most prescription medications as their so widespread.
Heart inflammation. Weighing of peronal risk factors, e.g., age or lack of comorbitities. Weighing social factors, e.g., prevalence of breakthrough infections and concomittant low value to 'health of society' from inconvenience of one or two injections that are required to achieve official vaccination.
I'm not prejudging how an individual's assessment of risks and benefits might shake out and I personally feel it's not a huge deal either way. That said, I very greatly disagree with the sense of entitlement baked into the comment I'm responding to, e.g., that I and all others should collectively drop everything and abandon all personal preferences and goals to focus single-mindedly on defeating the virus. The flaws with the majoritiarian premise are at least three-fold. 1. We most certainly will not defeat the virus in any way-- history teaches that we will at best coexist with it. 2. The viral risks are not infinite and easily may be overshadowed in many cases by life circumstances-- I am not required to quit my life and livelihood to serve majority sensibilites or lack thereof. 3. Before this pandemic I had some sense that my choices are personal, sometimes private, and always mine-- the pandemic has made me realize those sentiments are not universal, but have not persuaded me I'm wrong.
> that I and all others should collectively drop everything and abandon all personal preferences and goals to focus single-mindedly on defeating the virus
This is SO dramatic! It's just a vaccine! It's done in less than an hour! Wearing a mask is not fucking hard! What happened to American tenacity and strength in the face of adversity? How do these things even make your life harder?
We beat small pox, polio and other terrible diseases with the all in approach. Please take the shot and convince everyone you know to do so as well. If we eradicate this... it's gone.
This is an emotional appeal that has been used to justify countless atrocities in countless civilizations. A rational society shouldn't be thinking in such blanket and qualitative ways
Actions are bad because of their nature, not because of how they are reasoned for. And any given reason can be used to justify bad or good actions; that doesn't taint the reasoning.
That is to say, judging an action solely by its reason is intellectually lazy; Especially because you can just interrogate the action and its effects themselves.
To make it clear: Saying getting vaccinated is dangerous because the 'greater good' is also used to justify atrocities seems like something profound, but it actually lacks any insight whatsoever.
In this case though the greater good is very easily expressed in a quantitative way: more vaccinated people means less people dead and incapacitated by the virus.
It's not an emotional appeal though. It's pretty clear that a high vaccination rate will be beneficial to the overall health and prosperity of a population. I don't care about people getting vaccinated because it makes me feel warm and fuzzy, I care about them getting vaccinated so that we can ramp down restrictions and get closer to normality.
> a high vaccination rate will be beneficial to the overall health and prosperity of a population.
Then say that, don't say "the greater good". The "greater good" means very different things to Nazis or Islamist terrorists. We should encourage people to say what they mean, not vague and meaningless phrases like "greater good".
What kind of silly response is this? Of course a rational society would look at the impact of individual decisions extrapolated over the collective.
If nobody got the covid vaccine, would things be better or worse across our society than they are now? Simple question, simple answer, but something you are ignoring and thus you aren't rational.
There is no blanket logic here. This is not an atrocity. This is an instance of global pandemic, literally a 100-year natural disaster affecting all of humanity. It's not some slippery slope about your "freedom", stop trying to make it into one.
>Two doses of either vaccine still provided at least the same level of protection as having had COVID-19 before through natural infection; people who had been vaccinated after already being infected with COVID-19 had even more protection than vaccinated individuals who had not had COVID-19 before. [my emphasis added]
COVID vaccines aren't eligible for the VICP and have a laundry list of horrific side-effects, that's plenty of reason for any reasonable person.
> It's just selfishness and not caring about the greater good and health of society, your neighbours, colleagues, friends or family.
You can say the same about fat people, smokers, drinkers, and all other people who take unnecessary risks of any kind. They're all burdens on the healthcare system that reduce access and affordability for everyone else.
> You can say the same about fat people, smokers, drinkers, and all other people who take unnecessary risks of any kind. They're all burdens on the healthcare system that reduce access and affordability for everyone else.
They cannot kill someone by walking by them in a grocery store.
1. ~30 million confirmed (worldometer) recovered from covid. Some official estimates put that number closer to 100 million. Those individuals already have covid immunity and do not need to take a vaccine. All vaccines carry some risk, even if low. There is no reason for someone who already has covid immunity to take on the risk of a vaccine.
Friend had Covid last year, wasn't too bad. Caught it again in Jan (before the chance to get vaccinated) and it hit her very hard. She's now suffering from a pretty miserable long Covid.
I'm fully vaccinated, but don't think it's crazy for people to be suspicious of the vaccine.
In recent years huge swath's of the united states have been suffering from another epidemic: the opioid crisis. It is well established that a major part of this epidemic was caused by many of the same major pharmaceutical companies that are now claiming to have developed a vaccine in record time.
What's sad is that this legitimate concern has been whipped up by one side into a completely irrational frenzy that no longer makes coherent sense. I don't trust big pharma companies as a general rule, but I also don't believe that micro chips are being implanted (or even could be) into a vaccine. So, imho, legitimate vaccine skepticism is transformed into insane conspiracy thinking.
What is also sad though is that the reaction against vaccine skepticism has been equally turned into an insane "what are you anti-science!?!" Pharmaceutical companies are complicit in the death of hundreds of thousands of individual over the last decade. Being skeptical of the claims of these companies is common sense, not anti-science. We're also seeing consist contradictions about safety and efficacy of the vaccine. There are already complex side effects and the break through rate among full vaccinated is much higher than initial claims.
For me personally the vaccine still makes sense, and it certainly seems like our best path forward as far as policy efforts to end the pandemic. However the current language and public discourse on the topic is ridiculous.
Granted, I am in my own little bubble, but at $WORK (pharmaceutical company where 90%+ people have a phd), there is nothing but enthusiasm for getting vaccinated. I wish there was a breakdown between disciplines - STEM vs humanities.
As an aside, according to random internet site, 1.7% of Americans have a phd.
For me it's not about being anti-vax. My wife had horrible abdominal pain after getting her Pfizer shot, and she still suffers from fatigue almost two weeks after. We had COVID and for her it was much easier than the vaccine.
When it comes to "consent", it's the same as the whole Apple CSAM ordeal. Why talk about consent when it's for the good of children?
I often wonder if the coronavirus were not a respiratory disease and had more visible effects like polio, would we still see such a significant antivaxx movement.
Being opposed to mRNA gene therapy is NOT the same as being anti-vax. Likewise, being opposed to any vaccine which is developed using stem cells or tissue from aborted babies due to deeply held moral convictions doesn't make one anti-vax. A true anti-vaxxer is opposed to vaccine EVERYWHERE AND ALWAYS. There are very, very few people in that fringe category.
mRNA technology is NOT like sending a saboteur into a factory to change the blue prints / designs / masters records (=genes) of the factory.
Rather it is like dropping a bunch work instructions (RNA snippets) over the factory and have some workers (cells) pick them up and build the things described there-in.
mRNA tech isn't the same as CRISPR.
The worst that could happen is that a work instruction that we inject becomes self-replicating (a virus), but because it can't replicate to begin with it there is no way that it mutates to gain such an ability.
There is a large continent of space, ideas, and legitimate reasons between "trust everything government/big pharma seems to have panicked agreement on" and "the government is trying to microchip me".
It's important to have that clear-headed discussion, not this elite arrogance that discussion and arguing the points is somehow bad for discourse or society.
People are rightfully skeptical of new pharmaceuticals based on new technology with zero long-term studies being not just approved and being sold, but also being required for basic activities in society like earning a living.
There is definitely an argument to be made about not being locked down forever, and finding a way forward despite endemic COVID. But vaccine passports, and accusations that anyone with a hint of hesitation is "anti-vaxx", is a terrible way to engage and broaden the tent so all concerns are heard and addressed.
> There is a large continent of space, ideas, and legitimate reasons between "trust everything government/big pharma seems to have panicked agreement on" and "the government is trying to microchip me".
This is lip service to make it seem like vaccine hesitant individuals have a legitimate argument when they actually don’t. It’s impossible to have a clear-headed discussion when the other side’s argument pretty much comes down to gut feel at best and government conspiracy at worst. If you are (oddly) skeptical of MRNA technology, then the J&J vaccine exists and is also free.
There are well over 100MM shots administered since April and the worst side effect as been a dozen blood clots in women who had a pre-existing condition that caused them. Anyone who tells you they aren’t safe is trying to sell you a bridge. If you want to argue against hard data, then you must have an actual data-backed argument or we can just assume you aren’t a serious person.
> There are well over 100MM shots administered since April and the worst side effect as been a dozen blood clots in women who had a pre-existing condition that caused them.
Thalidomide was perfectly safe, too, until kids started being born without arms and legs. Oops.
1. Thalomide, according to Wikipedia, had fewer doses administrated than 100m
2. No regulatory body in America ever claimed it was safe to use before the side effects were discovered.
I don’t see how the comparison is apt. The FDA doesn’t have a track record being too cavalier when it comes to public health so I don’t understand why you would bring up an example of the FDA doing their job to imply they aren’t doing their job
You don't seem like you've had much (if any) discussion with folks who are concerned about the vaccine.
I would suggest not taking what you see on TV and the internet as gospel and engage with a few folks in real life.
There are certainly people who you won't be able to have a discussion with, but you're not being that open-minded either by shutting down everything by declaring "they don't have a legitimate argument".
*Edit: The myocarditis issue is real. Please don't handwave away legitimate concerns because of lack of understanding and compassion.
> There are certainly people who you won't be able to have a discussion with, but you're not being that open-minded either by shutting down everything by declaring "they don't have a legitimate argument".
Again you are playing lip service. If there are legitimate arguments you would list them. Either you don’t know them and you are carrying water for charlatans or they don’t exist. This kind of argument would not be tolerated in any other field of science. Can you imagine Einstein saying “The speed of light is constant for all observers but you need to talk to these people, who I won’t tell you who they are, to figure out why?”
I’ve had these discussions before and it almost always turns out the “blessed” arguments are just wordier statements of constantly debunked talking points
On the medical side, the legitimate arguments I see is:
1) Concern over long term effects which we have no data on (legitimate but low probability in my estimation)
2) Natural immunity is slightly less effective than the vaccine against alpha variants, but still very robust. These people should therefore be exempt from the vaccine.
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On the policy side, the legitimate arguments/discussions I see are:
3) We should strive for a society where consent is obtained by changing minds, not force, even if this is extremely difficult.
4) Slippery slope concern- There is no hard limit or consensus on when public health outweighs bodily autonomy and other considerations.
5) Who owns the responsibility to ensure personal safety. (should the obligation fall on people who don't want to catch covid to avoid public spaces and take defensive action, or fall on people who could be spreaders in the public spaces)
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If it helps to have a productive discussion, I declare my tribe as vaccinated and encouraging others to get the vaccine.
1) Is the only fair argument in which vaccine pushers would have egg on their faces. You need to balance this argument against (1) the predicted lives saved by the vaccine and (2) the documented long term effects of the vaccine. This argument cannot be considered in the vacuum. Let's say X number of people die due to long term effects of the vaccine. We know historically this number is low, but we cannot be certain. However we do know the cost of inaction last year cost nearly 500,000 excess deaths. Should we allow another 500,000 to die in order to do further testing of an otherwise safe vaccine? How many people, in your opinion, should suffer today until there is enough testing for you?
2) This is a public policy problem. Let's say you allow this; then everyone, in lieu of getting an actual vaccine will just claim they had COVID already.
3) No one is getting forced to take the vaccine. Vaccine mandates just mean you can be prevented from entering certain federal buildings until you are vaccinated. This is not a new power - children have been mandated to get vaccines to enter public schooling. If you don't want to get a vaccine, then society has kindly asked you to not step on a plane.
4.) This is only a slippery slope to people born after the time where vaccines have pretty much eradicated most contagious diseases. Previous vaccine mandates for polio and chickpox did not lead the USG into forcibly inoculating children with super soldier serum. It's a slippery slope to you because you weren't around that last time this power was enforced.
5.) Following this logic - should the government be banned for giving you a ticket for not wearing a seatbelt? Should the government allow the sale of cars without airbags? After all if I drive safe why should I pay extra for seatbelts and airbags? The short answer is - we do these things because, you living in a society, can cause negative externalities. If you drive a car without seatbelts and airbags you cause not only danger to your passengers, but also to the emergency services system that has to pry you from your car. You are only "free" from your responsibility as long as you pledge to not visit a hospital and operate on yourself. Otherwise it's simply unfair that someone who could have gotten vaccinated should occupy an ICU bed from someone who cancer. The second you are in the ICU, your "responsible" decision now must fall on nurses, doctors and other patients.
Again, I want to stress, I do not think these are very strong or well-researched arguments against the vaccines at all. I hope I have answered your arguments non-combatively, but I want to point out I do not think these are strong or even well intentioned arguments now that we are more than a year into this pandemic. Only one of your arguments had to do with actual safety and public policy, and the rest I believe came down to your personal opinion of how things should be done. I'm sure you are a smart individual, and again I don't mean this in combative manner but I'm going to trust the people who have been studying this for years. Going back to my original comment, most arguments against the vaccine are "gut-feel" at best and not backed by any actual data.
It's really not difficult at all to see how "public health" taking precedence over anything can very easily lead to government overreach that is unwarranted.
I get frustrated with antivaxxers not necessarily because they are against mandates, but because their arguments for not getting vaccinated are complete and utter nonsense.