Is saying that HTML and CSS are not Programming Languages Gatekeeping?

[JayCruz]

Context:

I got caught in this classic heated debate on Twitter https://twitter.com/heydonworks/status/1429021526221852680

People got all tribal about it and touchy as always, and even though many of the authors followers who said that HTML and CSS are programming languages and that they should be enough for getting a job, even tho most people are agreeing with him, he still had to resort to throwing insults my way.

https://twitter.com/heydonworks/status/1429166991110193157

[gregjor]

The job market decides what skills get someone hired. That has nothing to do with how we might describe HTML and CSS. HTML and CSS are markup languages, not general-purpose programming languages.

The distinction is important in the job market because if you only use HTML and CSS you can only create static web pages. That may be good enough for a small subset of web development but it’s not enough for a web application with user interaction beyond clicking links and buttons, or with any persistent state (like a database). Whether we call HTML/CSS “programming languages” or not makes no difference. The “gatekeeping” comes from lack of sufficient utility.

[rossdavidh]

No, it's not gatekeeping, it's just incorrect. It is, I would say, correct to say that it's not a general purpose programming language, but that's true of SQL as well. For that matter, Assembler, a specialized language which you would never have a human programmer use directly to, say, style a web page.

The real issue is that there are more people who want programming jobs, who know only HTML and CSS, than there are jobs which require only HTML and CSS. But, you know, when you're locked out of a job market by something that is not quickly fixable, it's difficult to be dispassionate about it. Sometimes, if people are "touchy", there isn't anything you can say to calm things down, and the best idea is to leave the conversation. Rarely, after it gets to that point, is there anything you're going to miss by leaving.

[alpaca128]

> that's true of SQL as well.

So you haven't yet heard of "the most advanced MySQL raytracer on the market" [0]

[0] https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=83222

[rossdavidh]

Haha well it is, IIRC, Turing Complete, but I don't believe SQL is a majority-usage ray tracing language.

Yet.

[phendrenad2]

It's not gatekeeping. CSS and HTML aren't programming languages, and that's okay. Since no one is going to hire someone who only knows CSS and HTML, it's a moot point anyway.

[ineedasername]

They aren't a GPL, which is the true distinction. Otherwise, they are a language, and they are used to tell a computer what you want it to do. Seems like programming to me. If you're saying someone isn't a programmer when they only know HTML &/or CSS, it is more accurate to say they are not a GPL programmer.

That said, it's mostly about semantic conventions. And by convention, if you only work with HTML and CSS then calling yourself a programmer would give the wrong impression. "Developer" might be a more accurate designation, really "Front-End Developer". These days such a job with only HTML and CSS would be rare, but there was a time when those two things alone were just fine. Then again standards change: You probably wouldn't call someone an engineer if they only knew how to use tools from 500 years ago. It's just that things move much faster in computer tech.

[alpaca128]

HTML is a markup language, like the name already says. It's as much a programming language as XML, Markdown or JSON, so imho not at all.

But I'm not going to argue about this minor detail. Doesn't really make a difference.

[quantified]

Xml and json have no associated semantics, so they’re further away on the spectrum from programming languages.

Markdown has semantics in line with html (when interpreted by the right toolchain, of course), but far less than html.

It’s sort of like “what the line between being alive and being dead”, there’s a lot of grey and the trick is choosing your shade.

[readonthegoapp]

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