[raxxorrax]

Interdependance on a whole societal level is an illusion. The mechanism at work is peer pressure. The most independent nations are the most charitable, so that puts into question the interpretation of these findings.

I believe the underlying demands of people that meditate are clear and people react selfish in response.

If "mindfulness" triggers a panic attack, it is probably due to underlying issues.

> you learn to open up your own vulnerability

Towards whom? Being vulnerable isn't desirable. To have no illusion about it is certainly healthy, but this sounds like a cult to be honest.

[atoav]

> Interdependance on a whole societal level is an illusion.

Where do you get your food from? Who maintains the water pipes? Who the electricity powerlines? Who the internet infrastructure you are currently using? Who made the computer you are typing this on? Who the house/car you are sitting in? Who the tools with which all those things where created? Who the food/water/cars/houses for them?

Not being dependent on others is what neoliberal rich kids trick themselves into believing in their wet dreams. Even if you build, maintain and everything that you use yourself, unless you have been abandoned in a jungle at birth you will always build on what is there: knowledge, tools, other people, infrastructure, etc.

What is this if not interdependence? What is this if not vulnerability?

Of course we are vulnerable because of that dependence on others. There are people who realize this and become preppers in an (usually futile) attempt to become truly independent, and there are people who realize that we are society and try to give back to their surroundings, and improve said society.

Because you don't live in isolation. Like not at all. The fact that you even considered this to be true should make you pause and reflect.

[noduerme]

Just to address the really clear question:

>>> you learn to open up your own vulnerability

>>Towards whom?

Towards whoever is trying to control you. Only cults use your vulnerabilities as a tactic. And only very stupid cults skip even naming what those vulnerabilities are, and jump straight to "you're so vulnerable". This response against it is simply a measure of the antibodies that people have against being manipulated by brainwashed morons.

[atoav]

Towards yourself. We live on a society. The lady at the cash register in the supermarket you visit to get your food made by the labor of other people is not a person that you might deeply care about. But when she is gone and you can't get your food maybe you would.

This is vulnerability in the societal sense: if we try to see things as they are we can all live our lifes as we do because of other people. Yet many believe they are strong independent bastions that could survive in complete autarky.

This is a comforting lie. And there are many such comforting lies. Knowing them to be lies doesn't make you weaker, it makes you stronger.

Knowing your vulnerabilities doesn't make them go away, but not knowing your vulnerabilities is a safe way to get them exploited (or find out about them in a crisis).

The thing is: figuring out your vulnerabilities always means you first have to aknowledge you have them to begin with. This can be hard. But it is something that can be done alone, if one is afraid of being exploited (which depending on your environment can be a totally realistic fear).

[ccity88]

Calling Interdependence peer pressure is diluting the nuance of people's relationships. It has a lot to do with culture and societal norms, for example in my culture (Arab) there is a strong emphasis on family and community values, i'm expected to take care of my parents, even going so far as to ensure their financial stability during retirement (absolutely NO care homes!). It's an interesting insight into conformity, but it's clear to researchers that western countries have less conformity, and therefore more selfishness by default; it's a symptom of the capitalist mindset. Regarding charity, yes western countries are more charitable but isn't this just more conformity? Charity is always given the most when others are watching, when it's made into a game or a challenge (remember ALS ice bucket?). Using charity as a metric for interdependence is also an illusion. More charity does not necessarily mean more interdependence; we should be measuring (as best as we can) happiness and satisfaction in daily life, which coincidentally the US and the UK fall short compared to other nations.

Maybe what we can learn from this is that there isn't a be all end all singular mindset, and we can adapt our thinking to fit our cultural norms, whilst avoiding the pitfall of self indulgence.

[noduerme]

Coming from Judaism - our history was based on family and community as well. It's only recently in the US that the personal impulse has become more important than taking care of your family. The word for charity (tzadaka in Hebrew, I think the Arabic world is very similar), you know is not and should never be about showing pride or wealth. This is what our Christian friends actually wrote down in their bible... their prophet was some rabbi who pointed out that many other rabbis strut around pretending to look charitable, who are in fact selfish. Then they nailed him to a cross for saying that. This behaviour has not changed much in the last 2000 years, whether you're Muslim, Jewish or Christian.

[raxxorrax]

> Calling Interdependence peer pressure is diluting the nuance of people's relationships.

True, it cannot always be reduced to that, especially within families.

It might often seem detached and of course elders always want to be visited more, but many also prefer that they can live in a special care.

The realities of modern work and family structures in western nations doesn't leave much room for care in many cases and it gives elders as their children more freedom.

It is true about the signaling properties of charity, although that is much more common in high society groups where it is indeed an expectation or a reason to come together. There are exceptions though.

[smhost]

There's a difference between real charity and a charitable impulse. A charitable impulse is good and it's what's being measured here. Real charity as it exists in our world breeds horrible dependency issues and is responsible for keeping entire continents in a state of forced infancy.

[t0rt01se]

Nazis probably had great big charitable impulses towards one another and those that looked/behaved like them. If they were mindful they probably would've observed their biases.

[smhost]

While you're gathering data for that counterfactual, you may want to look into how Japanese fascists used mindfulness to transform its army into perfect soldiers.

[t0rt01se]

Well neither of them were successful so we're both clutching at straws.