[KronisLV]

Disagreed, this is a dangerous line of thinking that leads to using technologies like gwt, Vaadin, Blazor, Flutter or others that try to turn the browser into something that it's not suited to.

Sure, there could be cases where you have absolutely no alternatives to do something really specific, but in those cases I'd first invite you to reconsider whether what you're attempting to do actually needs to be a web app. Of course, people's thoughts will probably be split there.

However, the bottom line is still this - large sites load slower and cost more to load, they consume more battery and CPU, which on lower end devices could lead to system instability. If users don't outright leave your bloated solution (i.e. if they're forced to use it because of network effect) then in the case of any non-optional conditions (slow or unstable networks, low end devices, expensive data) their experience will be miserable.

Maybe have your IM client be a downloadable app instead? Better yet, why not have it be a native app instead of a bundled browser app, for excellent file size, small attack surface and great performance, while conforming to the OS look and feel?

Alternatively, why not make your IM client have a lightweight browser version that doesn't try to do everything under the sun? Personally, i feel like the answer is not to make browsers do more, but to try to do less yourself.

To that end, utilize server side rendering and pre-rendering with hydration when needed. Split some bundles and shake some trees. Compress as much as possible and use boring, common fonts while preferring local versions if available. Avoid videos in most cases and use smaller images, or vector graphics. The web can be a simple, beautiful and fast place if we make it one.

[pimterry]

> why not have it be a native app instead of a bundled browser app, for excellent file size

There are other valid arguments, but "use a native app for smaller file size" specifically doesn't make sense at all - the opposite is true.

While webapps may be larger than simple web pages, they're still far far far smaller than native apps, and using service workers etc, you do only pay the download size for a web app once, just like a native app.

For example: the Twitter Android app is a 21MB download. I just tested loading the Twitter PWA (https://mobile.twitter.com) logged in but with an cleared cache: it's a <3MB, including all the content visible in my feed on the first load.

The native app is _7+ times larger_.

I suspect the same or worse is true for the vast majority of other apps, e.g. Uber on Android is a 50MB download, while m.uber.com (reloaded after login with a cleared cache) gives you the same features with <1MB.

[KronisLV]

That might be an apples to oranges comparison in some regards, to be honest.

Using native UI frameworks will almost always yield smaller file sizes than the equivalent implementation in any of the web technologies, regardless of whether served as a webpage, or bundled in a WebView or something similar (with few exceptions, one of which is listed below). Just consider a WinForms/GTK/Qt or a similar application in contrast to using React/Angular/Vue and including those within Electron, or even loading them in a web browser.

Many of the mobile applications out there actually include hybrid technologies (like Ionic, React Native, Xamarin or anything else of the sort), since nowadays telling a company that you'll have separate codebases with OS native widgets for iOS, Android and others would not be met positively. Therefore, concessions are made to speed up development, at the expense of having more abstraction layers and larger bundles.

One aspect in which you're probably correct, however, is that technically the web indeed affords you the possibility of having pretty good download space savings, if you choose which forms to make user download, as opposed to including all of them in the application. For example, if you have a billing form that actually needs 50 different variations based on countries and regions, and include them bundled into a native app, then on the web you'll instead be able to just download the one that you need dynamically. That said, none of this is alway easy, hence Twitter and Uber both employ a large number of engineers that work on screens like that, even if many people won't even see them.

My point here is that there are many different approaches and technologies that can be used, "native" in the context of my message meaning an application that uses the OS UI and widgets directly, without reinventing the wheel or attempting to encapsulate cross platform or web technologies within it. Of course, it's perfectly understandable and valid why companies that are highly focused on their own brands and shipping quickly don't necessarily adopt that approach.

[talolard]

I subscribe to an alternative premise - "The browser is effectively an OS and thus a standardized distribution target". There are cases where the people I want to distribute to don't suffer from the constraints you mentioned. e.g. will tolerate a 20 second page load in exchange for the experience my product will provide.

Being able to reach all devices and have a super fast experience without consuming bandwidth is always good, but not always a high priority .

[KronisLV]

That is a valid premise indeed, but one that i cannot agree with for a plethora of reasons. There are articles that go into more detail about what this approach leads to: https://idlewords.com/talks/website_obesity.htm

There are also aspects which are probably entirely overlooked because of that approach, for example, consider:

  - https://whatdoesmysitecost.com/test/210813_AiDcEB_e62852d10cb795009ccd61f1dd2d8623#gniCost
  - https://whatdoesmysitecost.com/test/210813_AiDcPZ_dd4b52c10c37e4c7483ab391015a00cb#gniCost

Sometimes, there are also accessibility concerns (especially in the case of Flutter), all of which will work against letting your software be used by as many people as possible, in as many hardware and software configurations as possible.

If the target audience of your products and sites are wealthy and able bodied individuals in 1st world countries, then by all means go ahead. However, in certain other pursuits inclusivity is definitely an important goal as well and one that i personally value a bit higher than fancy looking sites with rich functionality.

That said, isn't 20 seconds a bit much? Sure, i get that it's just an example, but i think even heavier pages like GMail load in approximately half of that. I think that bundle splitting and some optimization are probably a good idea even in heavier pieces of software!