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by martincmartin 1778 days ago
Having a concept of "none of a thing" is one thing. Abstracting that to a number is a different thing.

Even today, when you ask someone "how many kids to you have," and they don't have any, they say "I don't have any," not "zero." In other words, they respond with a phrase, often one with a negation (not), instead of a number.
2 comments
DiggyJohnson 1778 days ago
What if they're thinking "zero" but just don't have the word for it. I.e. what if this is just a linguistic deficit?

Please err on the side of me understanding your question well.

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srean 1778 days ago
Even the question whether one can 'think' of something without having a linguistic representation is a topic of active debate. My personal take is that its possible, predators plan ambush, but do they have a linguistic representation ? Its not clear that they do.
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sellyme 1778 days ago
> Even the question whether one can 'think' of something without having a linguistic representation is a topic of active debate.

This seems fairly trivially true just based on how common it is for someone to have 100% full understanding of a concept and then be completely incapable of remembering the word describing it, or even a phrase that conveys a decent approximation.

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srean 1778 days ago
Linguistic representation can deal with what's-the-word-again place holders though. So, not being able to recall the name of an object or concept does not prevent linguistic thinking.
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DiggyJohnson 1778 days ago
I agree with the context that you described. In fact, I'm delighted that we agree on that context.

I agree its not clear, though I might lean the other way. Who knows.

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srean 1778 days ago
Hellen Keller's writings may interest you. Her recollections from a time when she did not have an internal language is very interesting.

Many believe that animals do not have an "I" the self reflective "I", that they are not aware of themselves etc etc. This runs contrary to my beliefs, I have had several conversations/arguments on HN along those lines, but lets not dwell on mere beliefs.

What I find interesting is what test/experiment can one perform that can demonstrate that a human, who is not allowed to communicate linguistically, has the attributes mentioned above. If we cannot design such a compelling experiment that shows are inability to detect those attributes in animal even if those attributes maybe present.

We need the restriction of no-linguistic-communication so that animals and humans are on the same playing field. Hellen Keller, when she did not have language she would have been on the same playing field.

My position is that if I cant even prove/demonstrate to others that you are sentient in the senses described above, how can we even claim that animals aren't sentient. We have no way of demonstrating it even if they were.

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anigbrowl 1778 days ago
Seems contrived. 'None' is an equally valid answer, and easy to conceptualize as a number, eg 'start with three, take away two, take away one, now you have none.'
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