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by EGreg 1777 days ago
What makes you anti-crypto specifically? To me, crypto means cryptography, that enables both digital signatures and encryption. Are you against end-to-end encryption as well, for the same reasons? Let me dive into the root issue head-on.

I understand you only had in mind cryptocurrencies, but there is a far wider issue at play here, that must be discussed substantively.

This is generally about removing the middleman (Big Finance) from transactions, just as, say, scuttlebutt and bittorrent removed the middleman (Big Tech) from communications.

Now, there are (at least) two aspects by which they can be removed. One is control: they can’t prevent you from publishing X or sending Y. This causes people to be free to publish potentially seditious material, or otherwise objectionable or illegal material (eg child pornogrophy, or copies violating copyright law).

The other is removing them from having to collect data and report. Without middlemen, the government has a harder time going after everyone. For example, having every maker of a desktop printer or copier report metadata on what was printed, is infeasible. BUT in the past, when printing machinery was expensive, you could control what was published and sanction those who didn’t have the “letters patent” authorizing the printing of a specific book or magazine. You could make sure to control what was distributed widely. With federated services like Mastodon or Matrix, the government can make a bill tomorrow to require them to report metadata on all speech they host, to make sure none of it is dangerous.

This reminds of the disastrous SOPA bill that HN was pretty much against, but it has the exact same concerns, just in the area of speech rather than financial transactions: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

So today, if governments allow people to have “unhosted” wallets, there could be a lot of flaunting of capital controls (by sending $2 billion internationally very quickly) and tax evasion (by not reporting certain sales of houses for crypto, for instance). This would have implications for money laundering and funding unsavory groups etc.

At the same time, however, for small amounts, people want to be able to transact freely, such as buying a pizza with cash. This might become impossible to do given where governments are going: they have nearly eliminated anonymous cash transactions and will do so with crypto as well. When it comes to financial transactions, they will insist that everything will be “hosted” by a third party who can be punished if they allow certain transactions to happen. This is in preparstion for massive centralization of the monetary system in the hands of the central banks, you will have an account at the central bank which picks winners and losers, instead of “so-called” stablecoins which present competition to them.

The problem is that this elimination of petty cash can easily lead to a “social credit system” like we have in China, and gradual tightening of screws on any participant in the economy.

Thankfully, the US government has not taken the same approach with speech (probably due to the first amendment) and Big Tech platforms can be disrupted (eg with https://qbix.com/blog/2021/01/15/open-source-communities/)

The only exception the US makes is for copyright enforcement, and there, you can see much the same argument and attempts to ban people from being able to use end-to-end encryption to host files using BitTorret, say. The difference is, there are no “gateways” to the regular system so the battle was lost.

However, that is NOT true in other countries, which have less respect for freedom of speech. If we as a global community allow these governments to insist on NEVER replacing middlemen with technology, if we let them ban end-to-end encryption until anyone using it is suspicious in and of themselves,then they will ALWAYS have someone to squeeze to make sure the “wrong” types of transactions or speech is chilld - no matter how small - until it is eradicated.

To all the downvoters who hit the button literally 30 seconds after I posted: can you please maybe comment as to why?

1 comments

> What makes you anti-crypto specifically? To me, crypto means cryptography, that enables both digital signatures and encryption. Are you against end-to-end encryption as well, for the same reasons?

This is an unreasonable contortion of the OP’s comment. Conflating cryptocurrency (an industry rife with scams) to cryptography (a branch of discrete mathematics) belies precisely the reason people don’t take cryptocurrency boosters seriously.

It is shameful the cryptocurrency community hijacked the term crypto. Cryptography is the very thing cryptocurrency relies on to make their technology working in the first place (if we may call it 'working', YMMV). Cryptography is used in vastly more important systems, it is much more important than cryptocurrency. I mean, without cryptography you could not even use something like Git to develop software such as Bitcoin. You wouldn't be able to distribute a C library securely, something on which Bitcoin relies on.
And it goes deeper than that, including a point that woodruffw totally misses (perhaps he read only the first paragraph of what I wrote?)

If you are against anonymous cryptocurrency transactions, should you not also be against all end-to-end encryption? After all, it could conceal cryptocurrency transactions!

Or any of an endlessly growing amount of potentially dangerous information or assets, transferred peer to peer.

If you read what I wrote carefully, I clarify the issue so the substance can be discussed, rather than gotcha questions about equivocating words like “crypto”, as what woodruffw has done.

The issue is broken down into two things: 1) control over one’s own speech/identity/brand/etc so no one can take it from you, and 2) anonymity and freedom from consequences for illegal speech or transactions (according to the local lass in different countries).

I think nearly everyone is in favor of #1. The question is about #2. It is an interesting one - and notice that I myself do not advocate a position in my comment, just lay out the two issues and ask which direction you would be more comfortable for society to go in.

> If you are against anonymous cryptocurrency transactions, should you not also be against all end-to-end encryption? After all, it could conceal cryptocurrency transactions!

This conflation of free expression and hiding your finances would get you laughed out of any courtroom in America. I strongly support E2EE encryption and do work that directly supports a number of E2EE efforts; the idea that this requires me to support unfettered money laundering is facile.

And no, there is no such conflation on my part. Once again: cryptocurrency is, by and large a collection of scam artists and shysters. Cryptography is a branch of discrete mathematics.

Please read what I am actually writing. I will try a different format. Perhaps you can respond POINT BY POINT to show that you have read it and have a substantive argument about it, rather than about your personal feelings about what a name du jour should mean:

1. End-to-end encrypted communication opens the barn door, you can conceal any anonymous cryptocurrency transactions in there, as well as darknets, smart contracts for silk road, etc. If you allow one, you allow the other.

2. Conversely, as the EFF often points out, making a backdoor in any crypto means effectively backdooring all of it. According to their stance, you either allow all of it, or nothing. (I happen to disagree with that, but there it is.)

3. There are more countries in the world than "America" (you meant USA, I am sure). Many of those countries take a much more dim view of freedom of expression online, than we do here. We need to design our software for people around the world, not just care about the USA. Many people on HN are not in the USA. Here is just a small list of things that currently go wrong when we don't have "unhosted" communication (https://qbix.com/blog/2019/03/08/how-qbix-platform-can-chang...)

4. Contrary to your statement, the USA's courtrooms would not "laugh" the parallels out of the room. I will post just a small sampling of bills with the same intent in spirit, to restrict end-to-end encryption. I want to be clear that this is only the stuff done in the open, and doesn't include the secret actions by the NSA, or agencies that serve national security letters, etc.

4a. The MPAA and RIAA lobbied Congress to implement "reasonable" reporting measures to ban access to many sites that provide end to end encryption: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Online_Piracy_Act

4b. After success in shutting down Craigslist and Backpage sex personals, Congress wanted to go further, and require every site to do this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_Enabling_Sex_Traffickers_...

4c. Section 230 protections repeal: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-is-section-230-and-why-do-...

4d. The EARN IT act, just recently: http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2020/01/earn-it-act-how-ba...

4e. LAED act, even more recent: http://cyberlaw.stanford.edu/blog/2020/06/there%E2%80%99s-no...

4f: Trump's attorney general was vocally against encryption, and lauded the proposed bill banning it: https://apnews.com/article/ny-state-wire-technology-ap-top-n...

https://apnews.com/article/ny-state-wire-technology-ap-top-n...

PLEASE address 1, 2, 3, and 4a - 4f

I’m not going to do that, because I’m not going to spend any particular amount of time or effort defending a position that’s self evident among actual cryptographers.

Money laundering is not free speech, and supporting E2EE does not somehow magically mean that I have to support or be okay with burning coal so that people can crack hashes. If you want to argue about cryptography itself, I suggest finding someone who’s actually against privacy and encryption.

With regards to #2 there is a global conflict of interest. For example, someone in Texas might be pro gun, and therefore release STL files for a firearm under a FOSS license. Whereas in my country, the possession of a firearm is heavily restricted to people with a proper license (which I am a proponent of, but my bias is my cultural background growing up in said country). Likewise, I might be pro cryptocurrency for a country like Venezuela, while the government/establishment of Venezuela might feel otherwise.

One nice thing with regards to #2 is that targeted surveillance can still exist even with cryptocurrency, E2EE, etc. If someone who works in an average 9to5 job suddenly owns a Porsche, that could be suspicious to warrant an investigation. Just because the data isn't available via OSINT or via coercion of platform/data owner, doesn't mean it cannot be obtained. It just costs more resources, and that's a tricky sunk cost for e.g. law enforcement. That's why they don't like either; it increases their workload which costs society money. Its not they cannot work around it; they can. Just not via previously (ab)used mass surveillance tactics. Like I said, I believe that's a nice thing, but it has cons (such as indeed the increased cost/workload).

Now, I believe we need to discuss all these pros and cons with an open mind, but unfortunately there are too many personal interests involved which skew a proper discussion. For example, cryptocurrency adapts have an interest in their asset remaining relevant.

If you are against anonymous cryptocurrency transactions, should you not also be against all end-to-end encryption?

Only if you hold the belief that money is a form of free speech. Otherwise, money is just valuable property that you have to account for on your yearly/monthly tax statement to the government.

No, I believe that once you allow end to end encrypted free speech, you allow many dangerous things. Including cryptocurrency transactions, silk road sales for all kinds of bad things, sex trafficking and child pornography… you also allow terrorists to plan their activities, etc.

Yes I think that is just as dangerous, if not more, than monetary transactions.

Therefore, if your position is that people should not be allowed to have self-hosted wallets (“unhosted” wallets) and app stores should have to ban them from the stores, then you should consider whether the same position should be applied to E2E software across the board, and for the same reasons of opening a dangerous pandora’s box.

See the sister comment and my reply to it