[lkitching]

> You have the signature for `useCache` wrong. I defined it above (`Cache -> a`)

Yes, sorry it's actually the line

    maybeCache <- (getConfDirs >>= head >> initializeCache)

which shows the issue.

> but then the author eschews it in favor of... validation (with what appears to be some tricks to fool the compiler)!

I think the author is pretty clear about how they're using the terms 'validation' and 'parsing' in the post - validation functions do not return a useful value while parsers refine the input type and carry a notion of failure. The first two examples of parsers they give are:

    nonEmpty :: [a] -> Maybe (NonEmpty a)
    parseNonEmpty :: [a] -> IO (NonEmpty a)

you seem to be arguing that parseNonEmpty is validating because it throws an exception instead of returning Maybe (NonEmpty a) but this isn't true here since Maybe signals failure by returning Nothing errors within IO can be signaled with exceptions. The author hints at how these two parser types are related later on with:

    checkNoDuplicateKeys :: (MonadError AppError m, Eq k) => [(k, v)] -> m ()

There are MonadError instances for both IO and Maybe so the general parser type is something like

    MonadError e m => a -> m b

Admittedly this could have been made clearer if it was the intention and returning Maybe is preferable to throwing exceptions in languages like Haksell.

If you were translating this approach to other languages like Java or C# though you proabably would throw exceptions to indicate failure e.g.

    interface Parser<A, B> { B parse(A input) throws ParseException; }

so I don't think your objection holds in general.

> I'd like you to define "strictly worse" here

I'm saying you would always prefer to be handed an instance of an `a` instead of a (Maybe a) since it's more precise. You can trivially construct a (Maybe a) from an a but you can't easily go in the other direction. You either need to produce a dfeault value or use a partial function like fromJust to obtain an 'a' from a 'Maybe a'. The motivation for the post is to show how using a more precise data type allow you to remove these from the rest of the code.

> But why are variables in this scope (`main`) so important

The issue doesn't happen in main, it happens throughout the rest of the program. The high-level structure is something like:

    main :: IO ()
    main = do
      maybeDirs <- getConfigDirs
      maybeDirs >>= restOfProgram

main only has to handle the parse failure and report any errors which will look similar regardless of whether getConfigDirs has type Maybe (NonEmpty FilePath) or IO (NonEmpty FilePath) (and throws an exception). But the representation of the directory list could be used anywhere in restOfProgram. Given a chain of applications fun1 -> fun2 -> ... -> funN, if funN accesses the file list with head and receives a (Maybe FilePath) there are three options:

1. Use fromJust since the list should be non-empty 2. Produce a default value 3. Propagate the Maybe in the return type of funN

Option 1 is messy, 2 is also unlikely for a low-level function and 3 forces fun1 to fun (N - 1) to either handle or propagate the partiality. Yes using >>= and <=< etc. can hide this plumbing but can be made unnecessary in the first place.

[kingdomcome50]

    > I'm saying you would always prefer to be handed an instance of an `a` instead of a (Maybe a) since it's more precise.

I disagree with this. `Maybe a` is more precise because it more closely represents the actual system within which we are working. It is simply a fact that our configuration directories might not exist. It is only within the author's own head that they prefer a concrete type because they value being able to point to their variable and say, "look I have this value! It's right here!" in a procedural sense, more than adopting a more functional approach.

    > You can trivially construct a (Maybe a) from an a but you can't easily go in the other direction. You either need to produce a dfeault value or use a partial function like fromJust to obtain an 'a' from a 'Maybe a'

Again, the above is just not accurate! Or it is accurate in a very specific - "I want this particular value in this particular scope" - kind of way. Even in your example, we can be statically certain that `restOfProgram` will receive a value of type `[FilePath]`[0].

This is starting to feel like a waste of time. You are very much hung up on trying to defend the idea that using `Maybe` is something to be avoided. I understand where you are coming from. I really do. But you are simply not going to convince me because I prefer to model systems as a whole and I prefer to avoid doing extra gymnastics to solve already-solved problems. Throwing an exception? C'mon... we both know that example sucks.

My critique of the post really has nothing to do with choosing `Maybe` vs validating. My critique is that the author's code is utterly failing to exemplify parsing over validation! Using `Maybe` to chain parsers together in order to build an input would have been perfect. Unfortunately, they kind of mucked it up halfway through because they appear to be afraid of `Maybe`. It's a shame given that the post seems to have gotten around.

[0] This whole `NonEmpty` non-sense is a sideshow that's not worth discussing (other than to further illustrate how `Maybe` can be used to simplify multi-step parsing). What happens when you need the Nth element? You just keep re-defining the type to include more values? When we get to `NonEmpty6` I think maybe we will have realized we are on the wrong path. For our purposes it's better to think of `[FilePath]` as `Input` and not get bogged down in the specifics of its shape. The important bit is that it might not exist.

[lkitching]

The entire point of Maybe is to imbue some type 'a' with an extra value - Nothing - along with a tag about which case you have. So (Maybe a) is always inhabited by more values than 'a', and that is the sense in which a variable of type a is 'more precise' than one of (Maybe a). I'm not saying Maybe is bad in any way - as you point out sometimes you do have to deal with the possibility of not having a value e.g. looking up a key in a map, looking up a user from a database etc. In Haskell there's no 'null' value which inhabits each type so you have to use Maybe, but even in languages like C# or Java where reference types all contain null I would still prefer to use Maybe/Optional to be explicit about the possibility. I don't think we disagree here. But at any point in a program you would always prefer to receive an 'a' over a (Maybe a) if you had the choice since there are fewer cases to deal with. This is the same reason languages like C# are adding support for non-nullable reference types.

Type-driven design is based around encoding invariants as much as is practical in the type system (what constitutes 'practical' is constrained by the type system you're using). The (NonEmpty a) type is just used to demonstrate a very simple example of this principle. In the same way that type 'a' is smaller than the type (Maybe a), so (NonEmpty a) is smaller than a [a] which means the operations on it are similarly more precise, which shows up in the two version of head:

    head :: NonEmpty a -> a
    head :: [a] -> Maybe a
 

But this is just one example - you could replace it with different representations of a user in a web service

    type User {name :: String}
    type User = JsonValue
 

and the consequent difference in the types of the accessor for the name:

    getName :: User -> String}
    getName :: JsonValue -> Maybe String
 

Far from being a 'sideshow' this is the main point of the approach - using a more precise representation makes all the operations on it similarly more precise globally throughout the program.

In your post the argument to restOfProgram has type [FilePath] but in the post it is (NonEmpty FilePath) so you need to handle the potential non-emptiness of the list everywhere you try to access it, either by propagating missing values to a higher level or using 'unsafe' functions like fromJust. It's defensible to prefer using a simpler representation type and dealing with the imprecision, but it's not doing the same thing - the types for a lot of the internals of your program will be quite different. This is probably the main philosophical difference with Clojure which prefers to use a small number of simple types along with dynamically checking desired properties at the point of use, something which tools like spec and schema make quite convenient. But people use static languages because of the global property checking, so it seems odd to me to endorse explicit modelling of missing values with Maybe while rejecting doing the same thing for non-emptiness since they are both lightweight approaches.

The insight of the original post is that if you choose to try make your types precise in this way (and most Haskell programers would I believe) then the process of checking the properties you want to enforce from a less-precise representation is inseperable from the process of converting into the narrower representation. This narrowing process could fail and must therefore encode the representation for the failure case. Your insistence that Maybe should be used as the one true failure representation is wrong I think, throwing exceptions in Haskell is rare but but they could have also chosen (Either String) for example. Maybe isn't even a particularly good representation since it doesn't contain any way of describing the reason for the failure, just that it happened. I agree it would have been nice to see an example of parser composition using <=< etc. would have been useful there but it's not the main point of the article.

[kingdomcome50]

I understand the purpose of `Maybe`.

    > In your post the argument to restOfProgram has type [FilePath] but in the post it is (NonEmpty FilePath) so you need to handle the potential non-emptiness of the list everywhere you try to access it

This is what I'm talking about. You are wasting energy on this line of thinking. Sure the author chose to parse a string into a list which then introduces the possibility of that list being empty. But we could have just chosen a different abstraction to hold our configuration that didn't suffer from this problem. Say:

    getConfiguration :: () -> Maybe { cache :: FilePath }

Now it's always non-empty. Don't get stuck on some intermediate representation. Again, I am uninterested in the details of the particular format of some input. My interest (and the thrust of this discussion) is about how to handle an input that might not exist. Specifically in terms of "parsing instead of validating".

    > Your insistence that Maybe should be used as the one true failure representation

I cannot stress this enough (I've said this at least twice now), I am not arguing that `Maybe` is "the one true way". I am arguing that the author is failing to exemplify how to parse your inputs vs. validating them. I am arguing that the code they wrote to help substantiate and illustrate their point about parsing accomplishes no such thing. It actually shows how to validate an input in a way that is confusing and no different than (in TS):

    // returns a non-empty list of string
    getConfigurationDirectories: () => [string, ...string[]] = () => {

         const dirs = getEnv("dirs").split(",");

         if (dirs.length < 1) throw "ERROR";

         return dirs;
    }

The above is not best-understood as a "parser". The above is validating the input. Trying to redefine "parsing" to mean "the result has a different return type" helps no one, and introducing `Maybe` into their example (while on the right track) isn't really necessary because they aren't using the `Maybe` (other than maybe as a crutch to satisfy the compiler).

[lkitching]

The requirement from the post is for a non-empty list of file paths - your Cache representation only contains a single item so is obviously not suitable. In case it's not obvious: head is not the only operation that might be required and the author isn't using (NonEmpty a) as a wrapper around a single value. The requirements for the configuration are stronger than those provided from the input and the configuration type used by the program encodes that property in the type. That property is then enforced globally throughout the entire program and only needs to be checked once at the top level.

> The above is not best-understood as a "parser". The above is validating the input

Yes the example you gave is an example of validating in the author's formulation because it does not enforce the property it's checking in the return type. You check the list is non-empty but this information is not available anywhere else in the program. A parser would return a (NonEmpty String) as its result since that does enforce the constraint.

> Trying to redefine "parsing" to mean "the result has a different return type"

That's not a redefinition of parsing, that's what a parser is.

[kingdomcome50]

> The requirement[0] from the post is for a non-empty list of file paths

I'm sure you could imagine my example record containing more keys no?

The requirements from the post are arbitrary and could (should) be anything that best-illustrates the thesis of the post. For example by choosing a representation of their "configuration" that suffers from this silly problem of containing unknown content after parsing, the author introduces the whole `NonEmpty` gymnastics. It's totally avoidable. The irony is that the author was so close to getting it right!

> You check the list is non-empty but this information is not available anywhere else in the program

The function in my example does statically define that the returned list is non-empty. A "parser" would maybe return the non-empty list if parsing was successful. That's how parsers work.

[0] The requirement from the post is, in fact, to only have a single file path. That is the only data actually being used (i.e. required). The other intermediate data structures are a choice of the author.

[lkitching]

> The requirements from the post are arbitrary and could (should) be anything that best-illustrates the thesis of the post

The post is showing how using more expressive types can simplify your code through a very simple example. You started out saying the NonEmpty type is unnecessary and now you're complaining it's not complicated enough, so it's not clear what your actual objection is here.

> The function in my example does statically define that the returned list is non-empty

The type given in your example was

    getConfDirs :: Maybe [FilePath]

this is inhabited by (Just []) so no it doesn't statically guarantee that.

> A "parser" would maybe return the non-empty list if parsing was successful

That's exactly what the nonEmpty function in the post does:

    nonEmpty :: [a] -> Maybe (NonEmpty a)