[jacquesm]

None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew. And Russia beat the US to space to begin with.

Yes, SpaceX could only happen in the United States. But let't not pretend that the whole American package warrants the 'favored and exceptional nation' badge that so many seem to want to bestow on it, which is what this American exceptionalism is all about. Shining city on the hill and more of that kind of crap.

[JumpCrisscross]

> None of that would have happened without Werner von Braun and his crew

One cannot ignore that they did their later work here. Not there. As did many others whose own societies collapsed or otherwise failed them.

In any case, I’m arguing a narrow argument: that a company like SpaceX could only have been founded, when it was founded, in America. Because of its certain characteristics that are an exception in the set of the world’s cultures. (One among many: its unique ability to assimilate and positively appropriate from immigrants.) That doesn’t mean it’s faultless; that’s a straw man.

[skissane]

> its unique ability to assimilate and positively appropriate from immigrants

The US is not unique in that regard. Australia and New Zealand are very comparable in that way. Canada probably belongs in that list too.

I agree that, in the contemporary world, SpaceX could only have happened in the US. But that's because of economic factors (government funding for the space industry, easy and plentiful access to venture capital, a low regulation business environment.) That particular combination of economic factors is unique to the US. Being exceptionally welcoming to immigrants is rare but not unique.

[jacquesm]

Calling Werner von Braun an immigrant is a funny thing to do. Immigrants tend to have some choice in the matter. Von Braun and his band of rocket experts were given a pretty stark choice, surrender to the Russians or surrender to the Americans, they chose the latter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

In a more just world they would have stood trial in Nuremberg.

[nickpp]

But they did have a choice and they did choose. Just NOT the USSR, just like all those countless other people over the years all choosing similarly for some crazy reason…

[jacquesm]

Their first choice was apparently to join and serve the Nazis, the USA was their second choice when that one didn't quite pan out as expected.

[nickpp]

They were evil, not stupid.

[jacquesm]

Yes, hence my opinion that they should have gone through Nuremberg like the rest of the war criminals instead of being given an exemption because their knowledge came in handy. I see them at the same level as the engineers that designed the gas chambers.

[908B64B197]

I'm not sure they really had a choice in the first place. I don't think the Nazis were going to let him and his family leave the country and get a job in America.