[abstractbarista]

This conversation triggered memories of hunting for my first time as a teenager: I shot a beautiful doe with a black powder rifle using iron sights.

Observing the forest with my eyes and ears, waiting in still silence for hours in chemical and visual camouflage, lining up with its chest, making a slight sound to get it to pause... You feel a certain focused hunger as you gaze down the barrel, that you've never felt before. But the way it feels... It's something you know. Something that is deeply ingrained in you. The moment feels like forever, as you release a deadly projectile from your species' 'advanced technology'. Then, gutting it in the forest, dragging it out, hanging it up on the gambrel, cutting all the meat out, seasoning it, grilling it, and eating it...

Probably the most powerful, self-realizing, humbling, spiritual experience I have ever had. For the first time in my life, I actually felt like an animal! A real animal!

Did I have to kill that doe to survive? Absolutely not. I could have driven down the road to McDonalds and had a burger in my stomach in under 10 minutes.

Once I found the doe on the ground, I sat with it for a couple minutes in silence. I felt very thankful for it. "My God! I just killed this thing!" (I'm agnostic.) There is a certain realization - that we are all simultaneously frail, and immensely powerful. In that moment, you feel your place in the hierarchy.

I have a feeling that many among us today choose to actively fight this innate reality. People implicitly reject the concept that they are animals. They don't like the idea that they exist today because their ancestors killed things. Did things we now consider immoral. It can manifest in to a sort of self-hatred that is reflected on to others.

"Why do we even eat meat today? It's not necessary." Absolutely true! But to that, I say, because I enjoy it, and because I can. No other support is needed. My species has clearly evolved to enjoy consuming it, and to devise technology to acquire it. Become comfortable with what you are made of, animal spirits and all.

But above all, with great power, comes great responsibility. Hone your sense of morality, as we are in a position privileged to do so. Thanks for reading my rambling. :)

[cheese_goddess]

> Probably the most powerful, self-realizing, humbling, spiritual experience I have ever had.

I'm sorry, you felt it was self-realizing to kill an animal? What the hell? There's nothing sadder and messier and more harrowing than having to kill an animal and you actually found it a "spiritual experience" to kill one when you didn't even have to? What kind of culture do you come from? I can't think of anyone from the western world ("your species 'advanced technology'? Not a native hunter, then) that seriously thinks it's cool to kill.

Actually, no, I can. Ugh.

[abstractbarista]

I feel like this comment accuses me of fetishizing killing, and that disgusts me.

I had something long typed out, but it's just not worth it. When I (rarely) comment, I am usually reminded how debilitating it is. It's probably an indication that I should just stay silent, so I think I'll stick to that more.

I'll try though: People eat meat their whole lives, but never feel the act of killing and consuming first-hand. I find that rather sad, like they have lived their life never emotionally acknowledging this innate drive that enabled their existence. If anything, the act forces upon you greater respect and compassion for life and what it means to be an animal.

Hunting in my part of the US is very common, and over 160,000 deer were taken in my state last season. The deer population is doing well, and the act is well-regulated by government. I don't see anything wrong with killing for sustenance, even though it's no longer remotely necessary.

[cheese_goddess]

Yes, many people in industrialised societies have lost the connection to their food, not only the animals whose meat they eat but also the plants. But what does that have to do with killing an animal being "self-realizing"? What part of yourself are you "realizing" by killing an animal? You can't eat an animal without killing it, so you kill it and be swift about it and make it as painless as possible but to find the experience "spiritual"? That's ... just as lost as thinking that eating meat is wrong. It is a kind of thinking that comes from exactly the same place of disconnect with the world of animals and the need to kill them and eat them, even after you have raised them and cared for them from babies as veganism. It is the left hand of veganism. It is madness and derangement to derive pleasure from killing an animal and if you think there's any pleasure in that, you should go back to basics and learn to appreciate life all over again, is what I think.

Or, since you think the way you think about the connection of people with their food, maybe try to live on a farm for a few years and care for animals and then slaughter them, and see how "self-realizing" that feels, to kill a lamb that you stayed up all night to help give birth to, and nurtured and fed with your own hand. Try that! And tell me about the "spirituality" of killing something that feels like your own child.