[BoorishBears]

Yeah people go based on their guts drawing conclusions with this stuff, but the Volt has a 1.5L engine.

Imagine a 2L coke bottle. It's contents would overflow if you could pour it into the engine.

The Voltec system wasn't anywhere near larger than an equivalently practical BEV drivetrain.

Just like BEVs are coming out without frunks, the Volt simply didn't prioritize interior space at the time.

It was still a plenty practical vehicle, and if it had sold well it was going to get the CUV treatment

[theluketaylor]

1.5L engines are still pretty sizeable once you take into account the head, valve cover, oilpan. Then all the external parts needed to support combustion like water pump, radiator, coils and their wires and engine mounts. The total volume is a lot more than the 1.5L cylinders. Add in the fact Volt can directly power the wheels with the engine and now you are forced to put certain components in very specific, highly valuable places.

BMW managed to hide their rex engine really well in i3 since it isn't connected to the wheels. That comes with it's own downsides as well, since you can slowly lose battery charge with the engine running while climbing steep hills in a rex i3.

Don't get me wrong, I think volt is one of the best cars ever made and at the time it came out it was the most cost effective way to cut your transportation carbon footprint while retaining a private car.

PHEVs are the best and worst of both worlds at the same time. The worst now outweighs (in this case literally as well as figuratively) the best. The downsides of pure EV are now at a point where they only truly impact edge case needs (apart from cost that needs to come way down, but PHEVs are very expensive too).

[BoorishBears]

> 1.5L engines are still pretty sizeable once you take into account the head, valve cover, oilpan. Then all the external parts needed to support combustion like water pump, radiator, coils and their wires and engine mounts. The total volume is a lot more than the 1.5L cylinders. Add in the fact Volt can directly power the wheels with the engine and now you are forced to put certain components in very specific, highly valuable places.

This entire paragraph is like saying an electric motor needs batteries and those batteries need cooling systems and those cooling systems need pumps and those pumps need power and...

No one claimed the entire drivetrain is 1.5L, but 1.5L gives you an idea of how relatively small the engine is. All the components you listed scale down in turn. Smaller engine running at a better point in its power band needs less cooling, less oil capacity, fewer oil changes, etc.

> The worst now outweighs (in this case literally as well as figuratively) the best.

I don't believe in this view point if we're being realistic about a low emission future.

We have an extensive gas infrastructure just sitting there today, meanwhile we have grids that can barely handle our current demands.

PHEVs are a chance for innovative solutions to that. Imagine power companies being able to direct people to use gas during (what will be increasingly frequent) extreme weather events then switch back.

And consider that PHEVs don't need to be Voltec-style all-in drivetrains. Conventional car designs can be converted to PHEVs like the old 3 series ActiveHybrid was.

And while people immediately recoil at the less than optimal results of not designing from the ground up around batteries and EV requirements, there's no changing the fact that designing new cars is expensive.

Affordable PHEVs based on current designs could open up EVs to more segments of the market than currently possible.

[theluketaylor]

> All the components you listed scale down in turn

But don't go away altogether, which is my point. There is a space cost to be paid in any PHEV that is significant, both in absolute volume terms as well as prime placement. The engine occupies extremely valuable real estate. In a pure EV that's space you can move the cab forward for more legroom or cargo space (or just make the car's overall footprint smaller).

> Affordable PHEVs based on current designs

What affordable PHEVs are there? They still command a price premium over the ICE version. Here in Canada Kia Niro hybrid is $27K, PHEV is 34.5K and BEV is $45K.

PHEVs also vary wildly in carbon reduction based on owner action. If the owner plugs in each day consistently they are great. Unfortunately, in the EU PHEVs have turned into tax shelters and studies have shown most drivers never plug them in, resulting in more emissions than if they had just bought the regular hybrid.

5 years ago PHEVs were a great solution while batteries were very expensive, but their window of value is rapidly closing and will be gone once batteries hit $100/kWh in likely mid 2023. I certainly wouldn't spend money on a new one now knowing that inflection point is coming so soon. Used Gen2 Volt is one of the great deals to be had in cars at the moment, but new PHEVs just don't make sense to me.

[BoorishBears]

There's no point continuing this if you insist on displaying such a deep misunderstanding of PHEVs.

You literally still can't get past the fundamental point half of what you listed as needed for an ICE is already needed for a BEV. Even the Model 3 has an oil pump and filter!

The packaging challenges faced are not somehow forcing you to stick the engine in some magical super important place where batteries would never have to be either, like I have no idea why you're acting like a frunk is some sacred place you're robbed of if there's an engine there when several BEVs have come out without them.

Like do you not realize a Model S has a radiator? Or that there are ICE cars with engines everywhere from the front to the back of the car?

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And theres are no cheap EVs besides econoboxes priced above their bracket. Phev or not.

That's why as far as I'm concerned we're not on a realistic path to reducing our emissions.

Everyone is throwing out deadlines for ICE production and patting themselves on the back until those deadlines approach and are kicked down the line.

An entire classes of EVs hasn't appered yet, and for now we can blame the cost of batteries or something, but eventually we'll run out of excuses.

The true reason is because companies that have been incrementally updating the same platforms for a decade won't go and redesign their cars as EVs and keep them affordable. That's why the Model 3, which really is the EV equivalent of a Camry, costs 10-15k extra.

Meanwhile the Rav 4 Prime is equipped similarly to a Rav 4 Limited but only costs 3k more (also comes with 100 more HP...)

PHEVs are poised to fill the gap when reality comes home to roost. When our power grids are failing to cope with basic cooling, no one is going to force people to look at other options.

[theluketaylor]

> displaying such a deep misunderstanding of PHEVs.

Don't misunderstand them at all, and I have volt in my top 5 best cars of the last 20 years for regular people. I just think the time of the PHEV has come and gone. Used they are still interesting buys, but I wouldn't spend any money on a new combustion engine anymore.

> I have no idea why you're acting like a frunk is some sacred place you're robbed of if there's an engine there when several BEVs have come out without them.

Never said engine space needed to be used for a frunk (though that has been a common choice). MEB is a notable BEV platform with no frunk, but they used that space to move the cab forward significantly, adding valuable passenger and luggage space. MEB cars have pretty insane rear seat room for their overall size class and it's becuase the whole passenger shell moved forward by approx. one transverse engine. Frunks are not necessary, but what's valuable is re-claiming prime space that has always been eaten by engines. Having an engine connected to the wheels forces your hand on a whole bunch of decisions about front wheel and steering rack placement, length of the front control arms, height of the hood, etc. The list is very long.

> Like do you not realize a Model S has a radiator?

And it's 1/3 to 1/4 the size of an ICE radiator of similar kW power output.

>Or that there are ICE cars with engines everywhere from the front to the back of the car?

Mid-engine cars are great to drive, but come with extreme space sacrifices in the pursuit of weight distribution and handling (not to mention typically horrible access for maintenance). Rear engine cars like beetle and 911 are truly interesting for packaging, but have a number of downsides of their own. It took porsche 30 years and tons of developments in tire technology to kill the lift-off oversteer in the 911.

> PHEVs are poised to fill the gap when reality comes home to roost

When studies showed the majority of PHEV owners in the EU didn't ever plug them in I soured significantly on PHEVs as a concept. Turns out people having to actively choose daily to reduce emissions doesn't result in the best results. Perhaps if there was punishing enough carbon taxes, but as it stands PHEVs in the rear world have fallen far short of the ideal.

[BoorishBears]

> Like do you not realize a Model S has a radiator? > And it's 1/3 to 1/4 the size of an ICE radiator of similar kW power output.

Oh so now you get having a smaller sized component matters?

Also, no. It's not "1/4th" the size of a similar power output. The 60D radiator is larger than the one on a 480HP Charger...

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And all the talk of handling dynamics... Porsche was sticking 500HP to the rear wheels only of 2,500lbs cars with 0 weight in any other part of the car in the days before traction control and modern rubber.

It's hilarious to act like grocery getters, or even luxury sports sedans face those problems.

> When studies showed the majority of PHEV owners in the EU didn't ever plug them in I soured significantly on PHEVs as a concept. Turns out people having to actively choose daily to reduce emissions doesn't result in the best results.

Wait, you mean to tell me that when we don't have widespread charging infrastructure, but we heavily subsidize PHEVs until they're cheaper than comparable gas-only cars... people buy them for the rebates instead of the EV benefits????

People who didn't even have wall outlets to slow charge their cars were buying PHEVs because you could get a 3 series for 10k under sticker for a comparable ICE-only model, there's 0 surprise that they'd be using gas.

Where you can actually examine real world effects of them is when we've reached the point where people can actually charge them, and gas prices continue to rise. And even compared to 5 years ago both are happening.

You don't need a carbon tax to punish people for charging EVs, you just need to make charging make sense.

The bonus here is that solving the problems that made PHEVs end up running on gas solves problems for EVs in general.

Before you reach the point where BEVs have widespread appeal you solve the issues PHEVs face 10 times over.