[pydry]

>They’re purposely ill defined.

Yes they were. The cynical side of me says that this was because they were purposefully trying to create a rallying cry or something akin to a religion to better sell their wares and were unconcerned about the fallout that would ensue.

The less cynical side of me says they did it because they came up with "extreme programming" and knew that a lot of it was kind of bullshit, disagreed with each other on the details, but wanted some way to push people in "that sort of direction".

The net result either way was... well, a kind of religion.

>You also belittle scrum for becoming too specific.

No, I didn't belittle scrum for being specific. It's one of the good things about it. It is, however, a specifically defined bad way of running a team. We do need designed processes as specific as scrum, that are less one-size-fits-all and that have a more systematic and refined approach to software quality, estimation and design.

"Scrumban" is definitely an improvement, but even that is still lacking.

I'd like to see software team processes treated in many respects as a kind of "software to run teams", specifically meaning:

* That it gets iterated frequently and responds to feedback at every level (not just team, but philosophically - by its founders).

* That it's clearly and precisely defined.

* That there are a variety of different config switches depending on circumstances (e.g. number of people, skill distribution, are you building CRM or flying space rockets, etc.).

* That the individual pieces (e.g. retros, sprint planning) can be chopped and changed and upgraded/iterated on individually and yet still couple to each other sensibly - akin to the UNIX philosophy.

>Knowledge work is immaterial and should have no prescribed rails

No, anarchy is no good either.

[rramadass]

>this was because they were purposefully trying to create a rallying cry or something akin to a religion to better sell their wares

> they came up with "extreme programming" and knew that a lot of it was kind of bullshit, disagreed with each other on the details

Money quotes!

I had attended a presentation by Kent Beck on "eXtreme Programming" well before the Agile/Scrum movement started and came away with the exact sentiments listed above.

[lrdswrk00]

Who is they? The original authors have little to do with the administrative state that’s been wrapped around our agency.

Anarchy is no good.

Haha.

Your efforts are constrained by physical science, social objectives.

There’s plenty of structure to prevent anarchy.

But you would further impose problem solving constraints on others thought work.

Shit n hellfire; what a dumpster fire of a culture.

Would you say something as minimal as “E=mc^2” promotes anarchy? It hardly illustrates the full meaning of relativity.

Perhaps where you perceive emptiness and anarchy, others perceive correctness and order.

Like religion; one mans abstraction is another mans insanity.

[pydry]

>Who is they?

The 17 authors of the manifesto.

>But you would further impose problem solving constraints on others thought work.

I would, yes. I've worked with a diversity of methodologies and several times with no explicit methodology all and in a team context we ended up a disorganized mess.

[lrdswrk00]

You might try to accept the rest of us don’t jump through the hoops of having a financially thriving job for you.

It’s not to bring order to chaos. It’s to afford shelter, food, and healthcare.

Sorry, not sorry.

Perhaps you’d be happier living as a hermit, where you can organize as you wish; everything just so! without the rest of humanity, that does quite a bit of the heavy lifting for you, interfering.