[gm]

LOL, so true. I often need to have online meetings with engineers that for some reason prefer Linux as their desktop OS. Guess which meeting participants _always_ delay the meetings because they can't get their audio/video working for routine meetings?

If that happens to pretty tech savvy software engineers, the average user has zero chance of using Linux as a desktop effectively.

[pessimizer]

It's very difficult to make most proprietary enterprise trash work with Linux. That will always be the case, no matter how superior or inferior the OS is, because unlocked hardware/OSes are bad for some business models based on lock-in/subscriptions, and that are meant to be a portion of entire ecosystems that are being sold. The only reason most of them work eventually is because Linux users are tinkerers, and usually completely against the wishes of the software vendors.

[f6v]

An OS isn’t just an OS, it’s OS + apps. Doesn’t matter who’s fault it is. The bottom line is that productivity is affected.

[fsflover]

Nevertheless you cannot reasonably say that the OS itself is bad. It's the pressure of the monopolies against freedom.

[deltaonefour]

It's not about the blame game. When asking a user that has no care, ideology or stakes in the game how "good" an OS is... if the OS crashes, that OS is likely bad.

This is the overall the most important metric.

[fsflover]

Linux does not crash anymore. Proprietary apps can though. Is it still on the OS?

[deltaonefour]

Linux does crash. I've seen it crash yesterday. It depends on the hardware you're using.

When it crashes it's 100% a problem in kernel space. Driver issues, compatibility issues. It is NOT an app. The OS should not give the privilege to an app to crash anything else other than itself.

What you MEANT to say is Linux crashes less than before and likely never crashes for certain hardware.

OVERALL linux will still crash MORE than windows when you look at everything holistically.

[boudin]

It does matter. But companies should not pick software solution with garbage Linux support if some employees are using Linux. Nobody would pick a software that does not work on Windows and Macos.

[f6v]

There’re companies that solve it easily by just giving everyone the same laptop. Most of the times you can’t make everyone happy.

[itsoktocry]

I've been using Ubuntu for years, including all throughout the pandemic and the resulting remote work. I use it on my desktop, laptop, builtin camera, external camera, on the computers, through my home theatre HDMI connection, slack calls, zoom, teams, Google meet...

I've can't recall ever have an issue getting my sound working that didn't involve opening settings and making sure the right input/output were selected.

I feel the need to add this to the conversation so people are not dissuaded from trying great open source projects.

[rglullis]

Funny, my experience has been that windows users had trouble to connect their fancy bluetooth headsets with the proper profile, or they forgot to charge their airpods and had to scramble to get a replacement earphone... all the linux devs on my team (myself included) manage to connect to zoom, slack or google meet without any issue.

The difference is we know already what works with our equipment and what doesn't, so we don't wait until the last minute to figure out if some gadget can be used in an important setting? Also important, some of the engineers that "for some reason prefer Linux" know something that you don't, like the importance of adopting open standards and buying from hardware companies that do not lock you in into their ecosystem?

[pjmlp]

Maybe when this crisis is over, those Linux devs should come one day earlier when trying to do presentations on our beamers, instead of showing us the configuration mighty of xrandr.

[rglullis]

It's the other day around. You should be asking them what beamers they would be able to use on their Linux systems with good support and that does not require complicated tools, instead of buying something that is not supported (yet!) and claiming later that Linux is crap because it doesn't work for your particular type of hardware.

[pjmlp]

Except at the end of the day catering for 1% of the desktop is too much to ask for to cripple business operations with, when 99% of everyone else is coming in with Windows and macOS laptops.

[rglullis]

Not at all. The peripherals that work with Linux also will (likely) work with Windows or MacOS.

[pjmlp]

Yeah, and usually more constraint in capabilities.

[danhor]

In my case, I've had a few issues with screen sharing online meetings:

- Webex doesn't provide screen sharing in larger meetings via WebRTC. It really sucks, since it works in smaller ones and people really get suprised by this.

- The last time I used Webex via their "desktop" app, they didn't properly support pipewire.

- Same with zoom, except that they don't seem to provide browser meetings at all sometimes & their app doesn't seem to support pipewire

I've had no issues with jitsi or bbb in the meantime, since they simply allow me to use my browser. Same with other screen recording software. For me, it's pretty clear that the issue lies with vendors trying to make people install their software and then not properly supporting it on linux.

This impedes the usability of linux for this purpose, but there's little that can come from people other than the vendors. Open Source software seems to work fine.

[d110af5ccf]

> Webex doesn't provide screen sharing in larger meetings via WebRTC

Can you not capture your screen manually and make it available to your browser as a generic web cam? (Not that you should have to, but still.)

> [Zoom] don't seem to provide browser meetings at all sometimes

Last time I used it they were engaging in website trickery. You had to click the link to download (and maybe do something else) before it would present you with the "join from browser" link.

[danhor]

> Can you not capture your screen manually and make it available to your browser as a generic web cam?

I could but I didn't anticipate that issue with larger meetings and it caught me by surprise

My understanding is that the web cam also uses different compression, leading to issues with readability

> Last time I used it they were engaging in website trickery. You had to click the link to download (and maybe do something else) before it would present you with the "join from browser" link.

Tried that since I've already heard about these dark patterns, but wasn't able to. It's easier and more intuitive to add a local account on windows.

[christophilus]

Zoom is the shittiest pile of dark patterns. I hate it.

But I can confirm that it works just fine in the browser on Linux.

[Buxato]

In my particular case, my fellow workmates in Windows are the ones that have problems with audio. My only problem is with Discord when I share a game screen and my FPS go down to the river.

If the average user means past normal Windows users, maybe yes at first (all changes need relearning a little bit)

But a 0 experience person? It will take maybe less to an user to learn PopOS than Windows.

[ellen364]

Oh dear. I’ve definitely been that dev.

Personally I prefer Linux, especially for software development. But the company’s default Linux distro (Fedora) can make life “interesting“ when working remotely. E.g. most screenshare only sort of works with Wayland. And now the audio fails, seemingly at random. (At least, I haven’t worked out the trigger yet.)

Unfortunately, as others have noted, there isn’t a huge incentive for companies to support desktop Linux. But it seems worth persisting to avoid the total dominance of one OS controlled by one company.

Having said that, given day to day needs like video calls, it’s probably worth using a less cutting-edge Linux distro at work!

[throwawayswede]

That's a poor argument. Usually this happens to "tech savvy" people when they like to tinker with their system on daily basis and use bleeding edge software (since you have unlimited customizability, unlike the competition), you're bound to have issues. Normal users can just use an LTS release and (for the average user) they won't even be able to tell the difference.

Talk to anyone who installs beta iOS versions and ask them how much crap they have to deal with.

[NhanH]

There is a fairly high chance that beta iOS would smoke even Debian stable out of the window in term of stability for end users. I run Windows with Windows Insider enabled with Dev channel (basically the most beta Windows there is), and no Ubuntu version I've used came close to that Windows setup with regards to stability.

I choose to use Linux despite the bad UX and bad stability for end user. Linux server (and packages) are supremely stable, but any package involving end-user stuffs (sounds, graphics, even Firefox) is an entirely different story altogether.

[pessimizer]

Not a chance. I resent greatly the huge amount of time I spend troubleshooting Apple product when I would never use it. The quality is fine, but not exceptionally good, and things that are trivial on other OSes are often impossible or forbidden on Apple product. Even to a further extent than Microsoft, who have the disadvantage of not owning the hardware.

[d110af5ccf]

This does not match my experience at all. Debian stable is hands down the most robust and well tested collection of software I have ever used. All issues have been on my end - either hardware failure or my own ignorance while mucking about in the configs.

LibreOffice specifically had serious stability issues a few years ago but has been much better lately. You could run Microsoft Office under Wine all along though (or use Google Docs, etc). Nothing preventing you from paying for stable software in that particular case.

Admittedly 3D graphics (not 2D office applications) can be rocky depending on your vendor. I've had good luck with AMD lately (but not in the past). That's entirely the fault of the vendors (AMD & Nvidia) though. Integrated Intel is and always has been absolutely flawless.

[deltaonefour]

>Admittedly 3D graphics (not 2D office applications) can be rocky depending on your vendor. I've had good luck with AMD lately (but not in the past). That's entirely the fault of the vendors (AMD & Nvidia) though. Integrated Intel is and always has been absolutely flawless.

This isn't like some caveat. This is huge. It's pretty bad in terms of overall usability.

[throwawayswede]

> There is a fairly high chance that beta iOS would smoke even Debian stable out of the window in term of stability for end users.

You could not have chosen a worse example distro to throw in your flawed presumption. Debian is one of the most rigorously tested and sought after distros specifically for its stability.

There's nothing wrong in you preferring to use Windows or Mac. But throwing unsubstantiated claims around is foolish.

[Aeolun]

> Guess which meeting participants _always_ delay the meetings because they can't get their audio/video working for routine meetings?

This can also be because this random enterprise want to use something other than zoom for some godforsaken reason.

Spend all that time to get your setup working, but congratulations, it doesn’t work with GloryOnlineMeeting 2.4.

[boudin]

On this regard, it's often commercial software that are just bad with really poor support on Linux.