[dalbasal]

>> am always fascinated when I hear other nerds describe the process of learning Western history as "begin with the Greeks."

A good example of frames being "made up," in the sense that they can be constructed multiple ways.

Another frame might be that Greeks were not "Western" at all. They were simply the western fringe of the greater "fertile crescent" culture. This frame would have made more sense to the Greeks themselves, who considered Egypt the source of much knowledge and urban culture. Writers like Plato credited scholars visiting egypt (Eg his uncle Solon) for bringing this knowledge back, especially during the Athenian golden age. The greek alphabet is also derived from the phoenician/canaanite/semitic alphabet. Archeology of older periods, like the Minoan Greek era, suggest Egyptian cultural influence started very early.

"The West" (also near east, and far east) is actually a Greek concept, and the directions are relative to Greece. Rome is "The West" because its west of Greece. But, both Greek and Roman empires were a lot more active in the east than in the west.

[jhgb]

Ancient Greeks were Indo-Europeans, though, unlike any of the contemporary Ferticle Crescent cultures. In many ways that does make them very much western, e.g. their invention of vowel graphemes was one that other western peoples such as Latins/Romans who were also Indo-European and needed them as well could take advantage of.

[datameta]

The Persians were just as much descended from Indo-Europeans as the Greeks were and they were squarely in the Near East by any Greek account. If anything Indo-European ancestry is what can point out commonalities rather than be a source of categorical division.

[bigbillheck]

> Ancient Greeks were Indo-Europeans, though,

So were the Hittites, and the ruling class of the Mittani.

[jhgb]

True, I sometimes forget how far north the Fertile Crescent reached. Nevertheless, when the Greeks rose to their height the Hittites had already been gone. The fact the Hittite language had to be deciphered in the 20th century attests to the cultural irrelevance of the Hittites for the western world. Compared to that we have whole schools of philosophy for Ancient Greece. We've never needed to rediscover Greece -- it's always been there in the background.

[wl]

We also had to decipher Egyptian. I don't think having to do so speaks to the cultural irrelevance of a civilization.

[jhgb]

Yes, and the result of that was that for two thousand years, Greco-Roman culture was directly influencing European cultures while Egyptian was not. That my country produced Alexandreis (a vernacular Czech version based on a French original by Gautier de Châtillon) in the High Middle Ages and not Ramesseis instead is telling: Egyptian culture had been irrelevant to us for two millennia. You had to wait for the 20th century and Mika Waltari to retell the story of Sinuhe.

[wl]

If we're talking about Sinuhe, that's on the wrong side of the Late Bronze Age systems collapse. Other than perhaps faint echos found in the Greek epics and the Hebrew scriptures, Mediterranean texts from the other side of the collapse were undeciphered until the 19th century. Ramesses II and Alexander are more than eight centuries apart, with Alexander being on our side of the collapse.

On the other hand, that Greco-Roman culture that was so influential is in no small part Egyptian. Alexandria was a major cultural center of the Greco-Roman world. Egypt was the first nation to convert to Christianity en masse and that influence on Christianity remains today.

[DiogenesKynikos]

The Hittites were gone, but languages related to Hittite were still spoken throughout Asia Minor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolian_languages

[quotemstr]

Whether we call classical Greece "western" is not is ultimately not all that relevant. What matters more to me is that, reading the ancient Greek sources, we see attitudes, philosophies, dreams, and goals that are immediately recognizable as being "us" in an important way.

Consider the justly famous and beautiful funeral oration of Pericles:

"Our constitution does not copy the laws of neighbouring states; we are rather a pattern to others than imitators ourselves. Its administration favours the many instead of the few; this is why it is called a democracy. If we look to the laws, they afford equal justice to all in their private differences; if no social standing, advancement in public life falls to reputation for capacity, class considerations not being allowed to interfere with merit; nor again does poverty bar the way, if a man is able to serve the state, he is not hindered by the obscurity of his condition. The freedom which we enjoy in our government extends also to our ordinary life. There, far from exercising a jealous surveillance over each other, we do not feel called upon to be angry with our neighbour for doing what he likes, or even to indulge in those injurious looks which cannot fail to be offensive, although they inflict no positive penalty. But all this ease in our private relations does not make us lawless as citizens. Against this fear is our chief safeguard, teaching us to obey the magistrates and the laws, particularly such as regard the protection of the injured, whether they are actually on the statute book, or belong to that code which, although unwritten, yet cannot be broken without acknowledged disgrace."

""In short, I say that as a city we are the school of Hellas, while I doubt if the world can produce a man who, where he has only himself to depend upon, is equal to so many emergencies, and graced by so happy a versatility, as the Athenian. And that this is no mere boast thrown out for the occasion, but plain matter of fact, the power of the state acquired by these habits proves. For Athens alone of her contemporaries is found when tested to be greater than her reputation, and alone gives no occasion to her assailants to blush at the antagonist by whom they have been worsted, or to her subjects to question her title by merit to rule. Rather, the admiration of the present and succeeding ages will be ours, since we have not left our power without witness, but have shown it by mighty proofs; and far from needing a Homer for our panegyrist, or other of his craft whose verses might charm for the moment only for the impression which they gave to melt at the touch of fact, we have forced every sea and land to be the highway of our daring, and everywhere, whether for evil or for good, have left imperishable monuments behind us. Such is the Athens for which these men, in the assertion of their resolve not to lose her, nobly fought and died; and well may every one of their survivors be ready to suffer in her cause."

https://sourcebooks.fordham.edu/ancient/pericles-funeralspee...

These are words that you can imagine coming out of the mouth of a figure like Lincoln or FDR. Pericles reaches into many of the same ideals we still venerate today. I've never seen anything chiseled into some Egyptian obelisk or scrawled onto a Sumerian tablet that feels so, well, familiar, so recognizable, so modern.

[JudgePenitent]

>>These are words that you can imagine coming out of the mouth of a figure like Lincoln or FDR. Pericles reaches into many of the same ideals we still venerate today. I've never seen anything chiseled into some Egyptian obelisk or scrawled onto a Sumerian tablet that feels so, well, familiar, so recognizable, so modern.

Absolutely, well said.

[mcguire]

The oldest known written joke: Something which has never occurred since time immemorial: a young woman sat in her husband's lap and did not fart. Sumer, 2300-1900 BCE.

Epic of Gilgamesh, Tablet 10:

The tavern-keeper was gazing off into the distance, puzzling to herself, she said, wondering to herself: "That fellow is surely a murderer(!)! Where is he heading! ..." As soon as the tavern-keeper saw him, she bolted her door, bolted her gate, bolted the lock.

But at her noise Gilgamesh pricked up his ears, lifted his chin (to look about) and then laid his eyes on her. Gilgamesh spoke to the tavern-keeper, saying: "Tavern-keeper, what have you seen that made you bolt your door, bolt your gate, bolt the lock! if you do not let me in I will break your door, and smash the lock!"

Gilgamesh said to the tavern-keeper: "I am Gilgamesh, I killed the Guardian! I destroyed Humbaba who lived in the Cedar Forest, I slew lions in the mountain passes! I grappled with the Bull that came down from heaven, and killed him."

The tavern-keeper spoke to Gilgamesh, saying: why are your cheeks emaciated, your expression desolate! Why is your heart so wretched, your features so haggard! Why is there such sadness deep within you! Why do you look like one who has been traveling a long distance so that ice and heat have seared your face! ... you roam the wilderness!"

Gilgamesh spoke to her, to the tavern-keeper he said: "Tavern-keeper, should not my cheeks be emaciated? Should my heart not be wretched, my features not haggard? Should there not be sadness deep within me! ... Enkidu, the wild ass who chased the wild donkey, panther of the wilderness, we joined together, and went up into the mountain. We grappled with and killed the Bull of Heaven, we destroyed Humbaba who lived in the Cedar Forest, we slew lions in the mountain passes! My friend, whom I love deeply, who went through every hard- ship with me, Enkidu, whom I love deeply, who went through every hardship with me, the fate of mankind has overtaken him. Six days and seven nights I mourned over him and would not allow him to be buried until a maggot fell out of his nose. I was terrified by his appearance(!), I began to fear death, and so roam the wilderness. The issue of my friend oppresses me, so I have been roaming long trails through the wilderness. The issue of Enkidu, my friend, oppresses me, so I have been roaming long roads through the wilderness. How can I stay silent, how can 1 be still! My friend whom I love has turned to clay. Am I not like him? Will I lie down, never to get up again?"'