[tharne]

I'm starting to get annoyed with these articles. Most people cannot use things like smartphones and Facebook "responsibly". To think you can compete with companies that have virtually unlimited financial resources available to highjack your attention and get you hooked is completely naïve. It's like telling a heroin addict to "rethink your relationship with heroin and use it more moderately".

The only realistic way to reduce the grip of the these technologies on your mind is to use fewer of them and completely opt out of the worst offenders, like FaceBook, and TickTok.

I've deleted most of my social media accounts at this point and gone back to a more basic phone and my life is noticeably better for it. Sure there are some inconveniences and some people think I'm a weirdo, but it seems like a small price to pay to get my brain back.

So much of the power these technologies have over us is not that they're so useful or wonderful, but that there's a social expectation that we use them, i.e. people sending social invites via FaceBook, stigma against the "green bubble people", etc. We use them initially because of social pressure and then get hooked. If even a small and stubborn minority opted out of some of these technologies, say 9% of the population, reasonably distributed across ages and demographics, a lot of these expectations would disappear or at least reduce.

[Calvin02]

I think you're cherry picking a bit.

How much time do you spend on HN?

HN is a social network for folks who are interested in technology and general interest topics -- much like other social networks.

Do you think that people can use HN "responsibly"? The feed is algorithmic and designed to surface topics to elicit responses/engagement with the community.

[playpause]

HN can be addictive, but it’s different in several relevant ways. It has no notifications. Its user base is relatively small and industry specific. It has no infinite scroll. It is plain text so it doesn’t reward semi-mindless scrolling like media rich social networks. It has a dead simple noprocrast feature that doesn’t play games. It virtually never changes its design, unlike social networks that are constantly tweaking things to increase engagement. In fact the people who run and moderate HN seem pretty intent on slowing down growth, so they can keep it focused and stay on top of moderation. Of course it can still be addictive but it’s in a different category from TikTok etc.

[Dave_TRS]

HN is also different in that it's full of serious thoughtful discussion about things that matter. It's certainly addictive, but after I get sucked in I don't feel the same regret as with FB because at least I learned something about a variety of topics and saw what some intelligent people's take was on each

[ayane_m]

I agree. HN reminds me of the early days of reddit (pre-2010) where STEM people were over-represented compared to other popular websites at the time. The comments here often tend to be informative and insightful, and after catching up on the latest posts, there isn't much of an incentive to stick around. It's just how bulletin boards from the early days used to be, and reminds me of some small forums.

Reddit, on the other hand, has been a difficult addiction for me to break. It's gradually been growing into an alternative social media platform, and every new feature addition to reddit indicates such a transition.

It's still funny that redditors seem to be self-aware of their reddit addiction but somehow perceive Facebook et al to be worse. Different strokes for different folks, but at the end of the day, the mechanisms of addiction are similar regardless of the platform.

[Abishek_Muthian]

Agreed, But FOMO home page content can be still be overwhelming as the rate of change of new content is high. Thankfully HN has 'best stories' feature.

So to reduce the addiction by slowing things down further, I started reading best HN stories on my kindle. Apart from sweet e-paper goodness it also allows me to assimilate the knowledge in comments which we all know is the real gold using clipping.

I've hosted it as a service too[1].

[1] https://hntokindle.com

[tornato7]

To add to that, Facebook/Instagram shows approx. one advertisement for every three posts you see. It's a constant barrage on your psyche that I'm happy to avoid on HN.

[playpause]

Good point. Also the ads aren’t targeted, as far as I can tell. And there’s no personalised feed, it’s the same list of links for everyone.

[wpasc]

I don't think that's an apt comparison. The difference in degree becomes a difference in kind IMO. HN doesn't send you alerts or notifications that are optimally spaced based on A/B testing. HN isn't personalized per user to maximize each individuals HN time. The HN top doesn't refresh on command and provide a fully new page on each refresh (new topics come up but if you refresh the page every 12 seconds you will see very little change vs any engagement app that always tries to give you something new).

HN can be a time draw, but it's based on a somewhat transparent vote/flag system. Features of other social media sites/apps like A/B testing, personalization, variably spaced notifications, daily digests to draw you in are features that are extraordinarily well designed for our dopamine-reward system.

[dont__panic]

I've done something similar, cutting Facebook, Instagram, Snapchat, and all other major social media apps out of my life over the past few years. I would agree that HN is an issue as well, and that I should probably moderate my time on it.

However, I also can't deny that I've genuinely learned a lot from links shared on HN, and I can also attribute nearly my entire push to eliminate social media from my life to HN.

Additionally, HN, like a few other "hobby forums" I belong to, doesn't try to manipulate me to spend more time on the site so it can show me more ads. It only shows me content that other users have posted and shared -- unlike Facebook or Instagram, I don't see an ad every 2-3 posts or comments. That means something to me. Right now, all of those "hobby forums" teach me more about things I care about than they stress me out or piss me off or steal my time. Toward the end, Facebook was just a thing that ate up 10-15 minutes of my time multiple times per day. I can at least point to genuinely interesting facts I've learned from browsing HN.

And most importantly, I mostly do it during work hours anyway :-).

[jetrink]

> The feed is algorithmic and designed to surface topics to elicit responses/engagement with the community.

I don't think that's entirely fair. For instance, posts with a large number of comments or a high ratio of comments to votes (I can't remember which) are actually penalized, since that is an indicator that the topic is controversial. The flag feature is another example in that it is a way for users to veto low value posts that might otherwise get high engagement.

[gnarbarian]

hacker News is definitely part of the problem. I've started to use three rules to evaluate habits similar to hacker news. eliminate things that:

1) are unproductive 2) I do not enjoy 3) are pathological (This includes things that float around in your head and create negative thoughts after you do it. coming back to a very negative political argument as an example of this)

I'm not perfect at applying them but it has dramatically improved my life because it has given me a tool to evaluate social media use And I have successfully ramped down use of social media that made my life worse.

[SavantIdiot]

Is HN social media? It's media, its sort of social, but I don't know anyone on it personally.

I tend think of social media as non-anonymous (onymous?), because it seems far from a "real" social interaction when it is a faceless (possibly non-human) text account. But could just be me redefining things.

[selfhoster11]

I think HN is not social media, unless you stay long enough to start recogning names in the comment section (BTW, hi TeMPOraL!). It can be used responsibility, but for me it can be very addictive. I try not to engage, yet here you are to witness my failure.

[tharne]

> How much time do you spend on HN?

Too much :)

[yann2]

How is HN any different? Endless stream of attention capture just like Tiktok and FB. And the people who point at the pluses sound exactly like ppl on FB and Tiktok.

HN is a good laboratory to see if your suggestions work. If it doesnt work on the few thousand here mindlessly scrolling and jabbering away where is it going to work on 2 billion.

The chimp troupe is fucked.

[tboyd47]

There are some subtle ways HN is different.

I think GP's important insight here is that people need to start being selective about their social media engagement and ditching their smartphones entirely.

I've used a flip phone for a couple of years now and I would never go back to a smartphone. Having a rich interface to the internet in my pocket is too addictive and does not enrich my life at all. More importantly, I feel like I'm part of the solution to the world's vanishing privacy problem. Yes, I'm just 1 person without a smartphone against 1,000 with smartphones, but by existing this way, I am preserving a lifestyle of deliberate technology use that I know is smarter, healthier, and worth preserving.

[selfhoster11]

You're not alone, man. I sometimes still use my smartphone, but I'm trying to ditch it completely. It's too tempting, to the extent where it's life-damaging or life-destroying.

[ramesh31]

>To think you can compete with companies that have virtually unlimited financial resources available to highjack your attention and get you hooked is completely naïve.

The problem is that ordinary people have absolutely no concept whatsoever of what all goes into an app like Facebook. They load it on their phones, open it up, and it's just a magical screen that shows them images and text. There's no understanding of it beyond that. They don't know that there is a huge office building in California full of thousands of some of the smartest people on earth who spend their entire working lives and billions of dollars to figure out how to hack your brain more effectively.

Big tech really needs the Upton Sinclair treatment. But even then I doubt people will care.

[derwiki]

What basic phone did you switch to? I ended up getting a cellular Apple watch because it’s “smart” enough but no distraction apps (unless you count iMessage)

[tharne]

The Sunbeam F1 Orchid: https://sunbeamwireless.com/

It's WAY more basic than most people are willing to live with, but it's been working surprisingly well for me. Like I said in my original comment, there are definitely some inconveniences, no way around that, but it's been worth it.

Honestly, the biggest downside to using a flip phone is that you start noticing exactly how much people are on their phones and it becomes both creepy and annoying. You start to feel like you're the last man standing in a zombie movie.

One thing I particularly like about the Sunbeam phone is that it's sold my a small American company with amazing customer service. I asked a question about the phone via the contact form on the website and got a prompt and very thoughtful answer from one of the owner's of the company.

[benedikt]

what’s the camera like ?

[tharne]

I'd classify it as "not bad, but not nearly as good as your iPhone"

[paganel]

Not the OP but I'm personally using an iPhone SE. It's good enough for HackerNews and i.reddit.com but when it comes to apps like FB or Instagram I get bored pretty quickly, maybe the smaller screen plays a part in that, I can't tell exactly.

[dont__panic]

Still using a 2016 SE. I'm convinced that the small screen encourages me to read more text content (by discouraging me from consuming image content since it's only an OK viewing experience). And whether or not a site is unusable on the SE's 4" screen is an excellent litmus test of whether that site is worth visiting in the first place. Sites with giant popup banners that are so wide the "x" in the corner is off my screen? Not worth my time anyway.

[ramesh31]

>Still using a 2016 SE.

Same. And I've got 2 new ones in the box sitting in my closet should this one break. I'll never buy a new phone again until Apple releases another 4 inch screen. The new "mini" iPhones are literally the size of an iPhone 6.

[tharne]

I used the SE for a long time too, for the exact same reason, the small screen. It's a fantastic phone. I have a fairly addictive personality when it comes to tech so I had to end up taking more extreme measures.

[redisman]

I’m on the SE and it’s really not curbing my addictions at all. Everything works if somewhat painful because it’s a bit smaller. I think I’ll need something much more restricted

[MuffinFlavored]

> to get my brain back.

What do you do all day that is so different? I use social media (and this website) to kill time. I have too much time as it is to do nothing/nothing to capture my attention, I don't need more of it just wishing I was doom scrolling on Instagram.

At least on this website I learn stuff periodically throughout the day.

[tharne]

> What do you do all day that is so different?

I read (paper books) more, exercise more, started doing yoga more frequently. I've made it a point to call friends more too. At this stage in my life, time is at premium so I think we're in very different situations.

[MuffinFlavored]

50%+ of my friend interactions are me staying in touch (text/ messaging) by sending them a funny meme from Instagram

[tboyd47]

Agreed. The tech is just more powerful than the human will. Going back to a basic phone (or even no phone) seems to be the only way out of this.

[throwawayswede]

This kind of article is mostly clickbait at this point. There's a lot of "interest" in these kinds of topics and they attract a lot of attention on -funny enough- the same social media platforms.

I believe the main problem with those social media apps is not an issue of time, but of productivity and determination/will-power. Think of Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, etc... These are not social networks exactly, but all contain elements from it. I've deleted my Facebook account about 6 years ago now and slowly got off all the other ones after. Now I only use RSS to follow websites I care about. At first I felt like I'm out of a lot of loops and circles of friends, but I later realized that it was all useless anyway, people who I care about and who cared about me still text or call me. I didn't need to know about every little random thing that happens in the world unless I specifically choose to know about it. It later felt really liberating. People were taking about who marked who safe and I just managed with a text message. People talk endlessly about how good/bad social media is and I'm totally out of the entire conversation. Still to this day I meet people who find it very weird that I'm not on Facebook, or if they are as well not on Facebook then probably because they have Reddit/Tiktok/etc.

I can't stress this enough, but I really felt like my productivity was fading away about 6 years ago, after quitting I find the energy to work on the most random stuff that take weeks of work, I don't get interrupted and my interest doesn't fade away from over exposure to random stuff (even if interesting). I've asked friends who felt the same way to try to delete Tiktok (and video games from their PCs) for a month to try to work on something and they all reported great results. Every single one said that they wouldn't have been able to do it if they didn't delete app X.

My point is this; it's not about time, it's about what you get exposed to. If you feel unproductive (compared to what you were before) or think "what could 10 minutes on Tiktok do", try deleting these apps one by one. The difficulty won't be the same for all people, but it'll be manageable for EVERYONE. It's not about being on your phone all the time, it's about being on your phone because you want to do something, not just for mindless scrolling.

(I intentionally did not mention tracking or privacy reasons from this because that's whole other beast of a topic.)

I love this quote from Stephen Fry:

> Jacking out of the matrix would cast one as a hero of the kind of dystopian film that proved popular in the 70s, Logan’s Run, Zardoz, Soylent Green, Fahrenheit 451 … on the run from The Corporation, with the foot soldiers of The System hard on your heels. We really are starting to live in that kind of movie, mutatis mutandis, so surely it’s time to join the Rebels, the Outliers, the Others who live beyond the Wall and read forbidden books, sing forbidden songs and think forbidden thoughts in defiance of The One.

https://www.stephenfry.com/2016/04/off-the-grid/

[cratermoon]

> I believe the main problem with those social media apps is not an issue of time, but of productivity and determination/will-power

Social media are designed to be addicting. [https://www.economist.com/1843/2016/10/20/the-scientists-who...] They take advantage of the same techniques that casinos use to keep gamblers pulling the lever on slot machines.

[rmah]

Um, I use social media "responsibly" and it's quite easy. I look at various social media sites I'm on perhaps two or three times a week. Takes up maybe 30 minutes of my time a week. I feel no addictive urge to use them more. Most people I know may use them a bit more, but not much. The only adults that I know who use social media a lot more do it for work.

I submit that the majority of adults use social media sites are using them "responsibly" (i.e. occasionally and non-obsessively). My opinion (with no real evidence) is that the addictiveness is overblown for most adults.

[tharne]

Perhaps we run in different circles. I constantly notice compulsive smart phone use. At work it's very common to see 8 people load into an elevator and like clockwork 6 or 7 of them will instantly pull out their phones.

Any little piece of downtime where folks might have to be alone with their thoughts, or make small talk with people they don't already know, you can see people mindlessly grabbing their phones. You see this in line at the grocery store, kids and adults in school while do this while class starts, or the very second it ends.

You see a shocking number of people in restaurants who appear to be on dates where both people are glued to their phone. I'd certainly classify that as addictive behavior -- i.e. when a healthy young man is more interested in what's on his phone than he is in the attractive woman sitting across the table from him. Something is very wrong there.

[adkadskhj]

So i agreed with you until:

> I'd certainly classify that as addictive behavior -- i.e. when a healthy young man is more interested in what's on his phone than he is in the attractive woman sitting across the table from him. Something is very wrong there.

We can definitely debate online life vs "in the flesh" - but it seems small minded to me for you to suggest someones preferences for experience are only the result of unhealthy addiction.

Many would argue your allowance of modern life, from TVs to cars to in city restaurants/etc. That you (or that person, i guess) didn't make a home cooked meal, or go experience nature together - to be an addiction to the modern and lacking in down to earth, honest and real connections.

Not that i agree with any of that of course. My point is that i think there is a perfectly valid possible course where someone prefers to experience their life in cities, in the woods, or in more virtual spaces.

The reality though, and where i agree with you - is that i don't think we actually have a virtual space that _isn't_ fueled entirely be addiction. Powered by highly financed and motivated teams of people.

I just think we need to be cognizant of alternative life styles. Just because commonly certain lifestyles result in unhealthy behavior doesn't inherently mean that lifestyle shouldn't be followed at all. If that was the case i think this argument should probably switch to avoiding much of modern life. As it is full of unhealthy habits and poor balances. We'll be living in the woods pretty soon if we can't recognize the possible healthy and balanced ways to live in the unhealthy-unbalanced minefield that is so many alternate forms of life.

[ed_elliott_asc]

Im doing it at this exact moment!

[httpsterio]

Phone use is ubiquitous and people are glued to their screens even when walking down the street or talking with their family.

Our opinions are being shaped by all sorts of propaganda we encounter on every corner online and it has never been easier to end up radicalized. I think it's definitely not under control.

[jjulius]

There is a lot of "I" and "my" usage in your post. I submit that you're only arriving at your conclusion anecdotally, using a dataset (you and your like-minded peers, whose use you can't actually track) that is not reflective of average users worldwide.

[everdrive]

You could say the same for overeating, or drinking too much. Some people have no issue with overeating, but at least in America most people are too fat. ie, they cannot intake calories responsibly.

[tharne]

When something involves a small percentage of the population, it's typically an individual issue/failure. When it becomes the vast majority of people, like in the case of obesity, you have to seriously consider that the issue is in large part systemic. I seriously doubt, for instance, that in the last 20-30 years, 80% of the American population suddenly woke up and lost all willpower when it comes to food, especially now that the obesity problem appears to be spreading to other countries.

[542354234235]

>My opinion (with no real evidence)

Here is some actual evidence.

> Across mobile devices and computers, GlobalWebIndex reports that we now spend an average of 2 hours and 24 minutes per person, per day using social media [1] (in the US, it is 2:03)

[1] https://wearesocial.com/blog/2020/01/digital-2020-3-8-billio...

[throwaway413]

“Perhaps two or three times a week, maybe 30 min”

Post your usage stats. No need to guess about it when you can look it up in an instant and verify.