[tw04]

> But I don't think people get into any form of art, and I count programming as a form of art, expecting huge sums of money. We all do it for the sake of doing it, because it feels good to do it, to learn, to overcome, to achieve.

No offense: but spoken like someone who has made enough money from something they enjoy to imply they'd do it without money. If you were working 12 hours a day in multiple minimum wage jobs I think you'd find your desire to program in your spare time quickly vanishing.

[sennight]

> No offense: but spoken like someone who has made enough money from something they enjoy to imply they'd do it without money.

You'd have a point if he said he loved working minimum wage jobs that weren't programming, but he didn't - so you don't.

[gchamonlive]

This is very relevant. I believe we have to evolve as society and start talking about universal minimum income before we can move to talk about true dedication to art.

If I had to grind away for hours maybe I wouldn't have the energy to evolve in creative areas. This speaks more against big capital and normalized poverty than my comment though.

Edit: I wanted to go and say that I am aware of my privileges. I had time in my childhood to study, did minimal work with my parents, went to a military school and then, with the better education, I got to go to college, which in Brazil is free if you pass the tests. I have some merit in this, but mostly it was due to circumstance. I have to believe, however, that true art transcends all these social barriers.

[calsy]

So someone else has to sacrifice their hard work to provide you with a means to indulge your creativity without monetary concerns. This apparently is an 'evolution' of society, and not just another variation of an economic model thats existed for centuries.

[gchamonlive]

Firstly, exercising creativity is not an indulgement, it is a necessity. Just like you are not indulging yourself by drinking water or going to the toilet.

Secondly, lower class already sacrifices their hard work to indulge big corporations without societal concerns. Just like those workers in Fritto Lays that work for 12 hours a day, 7 days a week.

I am not talking about taking an even larger cut from their labor and give it to someone else to sit idly. I am talking about creating the means so that people can improve themselves if they want to without worrying about not eating or feeding their families the next day.

Or you think it is ok to lock people into those inhumane conditions? If people had the possibility to leave work and seek better conditions, big corps would think twice before overworking and underpaying their employees.

[calsy]

See the problem with your entire argument is you have bolted on socialism to the current capitalist environment. It doesn't work like that, socialism doesn't afford the opportunity for big corps to exist and the money you wish to take for merely performing a creative task will be from your fellow workers. Likewise, there is no incentive to nurture creativity in an environment that does not reward it.

[gchamonlive]

Could you please refer to where I talk about socialism? I don't seem to recall ever referencing it. On a similar note, do you need socialism to begin talking about tending to the wellbeing of the population?