[piva00]

Unlike the US? From what I've experienced and seen the US is another bureaucratic nightmare, it's just more localised in the states/counties but regulations vary quite a lot, creating its own set of nightmares.

Europe varies as lot as well, I wouldn't say that here in Sweden it's a bureaucratic nightmare by any stretch, it's quite straightforward in most cases.

[atlasunshrugged]

@piva00 Really? I rarely hear people comment on things like that in the U.S. except in really regulated industries like healthcare and finance. When you can start a company via Stripe Atlas in a few mins and get a bank account, that seems relatively streamlined. Plus workers rights are minimal so you can easily fire people in most right to work states, etc.

[jahewson]

No you have it backwards. Stripe Atlas only exists because registering a business here sucks. I can start a business in the UK via the government website in a few minutes for a cost of £14/yr.

In the US I had to use a 3rd party service because the process is total garbage, takes weeks to complete and requires sending physical paperwork and checks to Sacramento. I have to register in both Delaware and my home state, pay minimum, mandatory taxes to both, totalling ~1000$/yr and pay $100/yr for someone to sit in an office and receive mail in case I get sued. I also have to file physical paperwork with my local city (despite no physical presence) and pay yet more fees.

It’s rent-seeking, antiquated multi-level bureaucratic garbage and there’s zero interest in improving it because that would cost money.

After all that I get the joy of filing taxes with all those entities, plus the federal government.

[gamblor956]

In California you can register a business in literally minutes yourself (https://www.sos.ca.gov/business-programs/business-entities/f...).

If you paid a third party to do so...that's on you. You weren't required to use a third party agent for service of (legal) process. Moreover, if you decided to register in a second state (Delaware), that's on you as well. If you don't want to pay taxes for your business in the places where it does business...then why did you register in multiple states in the first place?

I also have to file physical paperwork with my local city (despite no physical presence) and pay yet more fees.

This makes no sense. How do you not have a physical presence in your "local" city. The physical presence is a pretty key part of the "local" bit. (Note that "physical presence" includes employees (and employee-owners) not just dedicated offices or facilities.)

Basically, you're complaining entirely about self-inflicted problems.

[ghomrassen]

Registering is one part of a thousand part process. Ask a small business owner, other than geography, would you rather operate in California or Texas. 9 out of 10 will say Texas.

[gamblor956]

I have asked that question, and 9 out of 10 said they would prefer California. Bigger market, better employees, better access to materials and cheaper, and better access to international markets.

Also, when I was still at a firm providing tax services to companies large and small (including a number of YC companies), I had more than a dozen clients move to CA from TX, and only one company move from CA to TX. They moved because Texas simply wasn't a viable place to do business unless you're in oil or energy (and the one client that moved there was in energy).

Texas is where companies go when they aren't strong enough to survive real competition.

[atlasunshrugged]

@jahewson - you make an excellent point. I guess that's also why something like mainstreet.com exists. I've registered a business online myself in the US (Nevada) and it wasn't that hard but it doesn't sound as easy as it is in the UK. That said, I'm skeptical that the US is less business friendly than Europe overall.

[jahewson]

Overall is probably not a great measure because a business exists somewhere, not everywhere. The US is I think really only big-business friendly. If you’re a little guy they could care less about you. New business formation is dwindling.

For example in most US states an employer can prevent you operating an unrelated side-business - how is that “business friendly”? The answer is it’s not - it’s capital-friendly. It has the effect of shutting out the broader populous from participating in business on their own terms. California gets this right!

There’s also the question of what level “overall” is measured. The US makes it easy to exploit workers and so suffers the consequence of having to support an impoverished strata of society which generates negative tax income to the government. In a society that prevents this, the government can receive more taxes from more people and offer more services, including making business formation easier - a virtuous cycle.

[raverbashing]

> When you can start a company via Stripe Atlas in a few mins and get a bank account, that seems relatively streamlined

Correct, but that's a small part of it. In fact why would you even need Stripe Atlas if it's easy to open?

Not forgetting a lot of state/city bureaucracy and also what I call private bureaucracy and complications. (as in landlords, clients, service providers, etc)

Bureaucracy is a bit like "the air", people who are born onto it don't see it and don't understand too much how it can be different (of course, in the most egregious cases it wouldn't be hard to optimize/simplify) BUT there's a bit of blindness when it refers to your own country's bureaucracy. (and of course, there are always things that are done 'under the table')

[atlasunshrugged]

Yep, I partially withdraw my previous statement. You make an excellent point- I guess as someone who just grew up in the US and understands the legalese and ways of doing business and where to look it probably seems a lot easier than it would be to someone totally new to the country. Still probably better than much of the EU with a few exceptions like NL and Estonia but point well taken.

[shafyy]

The level of bureaucracy differs from country to country in EU. I grew up in Switzerland and always thought they're super bureaucratic. Now I live in Berlin and that's a whole other level of bureaucracy.

[atlasunshrugged]

Totally, in Estonia even as a foreigner it was pretty easy to navigate bureaucracy for starting companies and immigration and even taxes. In Germany I didn't even bother trying to do it myself because it was so over the top. Luckily the company that hired me paid for a relocation service and had a person on staff that did incorporation and tax related for their ventures.