[robomartin]

I don't know about these numbers. What I can tell you is that the business exodus from CA is very real. This means less jobs, or, what could be worse, lower paying jobs. I know of entire companies who picked-up and left for places like Arizona and Texas.

I personally cannot wait to be able to do the same. I want nothing whatsoever to do with California in terms of business. After decades of living here I am just sick of it. I can't make the move yet due to deep family ties that we must respect and be considerate of. My mother just passed two weeks ago. My father is in OK health but he is up there in years. Etc. As some of these ties dissolve it will be far easier to make the decision.

And BTW, this isn't about Democrat vs. Republican states. In fact, one of my potential targets is Massachusetts. CA has simply gone looney. I can't even begin to make a list of the nonsense people and businesses living here have to put up with.

I'll give you a few (of likely hundreds):

They passed a tax added to your property taxes that is a function of any surface area on your property that does not allow rain to come into contact with dirt. So, yes, your driveway, patio, pergola, etc. All of it results in an additional tax assessment. For businesses, this means the entire parking lot is now a tax liability. Installed solar panels on a structure over some dirt? You just incurred an additional tax on your installation.

I am currently helping a friend figure out the technical aspects of a business he wants to start. His initial target was Los Angeles. This business would likely bring dozens, if not well over a hundred jobs to wherever it might be located. We met with the building permit folks for LA County. They pretty much told us no less than three years for all the permits to be issued. He is now talking to people in Arizona, Nevada and Texas. He is also moving his existing company (~100 jobs) to wherever the new business will take root.

And then there's the hundred billion dollar high speed train to nowhere that isn't even a high speed train and (if I remember correctly) might not even have ten miles of track built.

The governor signed an executive order asking for 15% water conservation. At the same time we have no problem growing almonds here and providing this high-water-demand crop with all the water farmers need.

Oh, and have you heard of the County of Los Angeles Business Property Tax? No, not what you might think. You have desks? Copiers? Chairs? Curtains? Equipment? Shelving? Yes? Anything inside the building you own or lease for your business is considered "business property" by the County of Los Angeles. And, as such, you are required to pay a tax to the county. Yes, a tax, permanently, every single year, on your chairs, desks, computers, coffee machine, etc. In fact, they call it a "privilege tax" for the privilege of doing business in or THROUGH the county. Yes, that's correct, if your business isn't in LA County but you do business in or DRIVE THROUGH the county, you are required to pay this tax. For companies with lots of equipment (like manufacturers) this could easily amount to $50K to $100K per year. In other words, a few jobs.

There's a lot more. I'll stop there before my blood pressure goes through the roof.

[antiterra]

> They passed a tax added to your property taxes that is a function of any surface area on your property that does not allow rain to come into contact with dirt

So they charge you for the externalities incurred by impervious surface cover? How is that anything but rational? Seriously, why do you deserve to add to pollution and drought without incurring any penalty for the cost you inflict on others?

Impervious ground cover is also an issue in Texas, particularly in areas fed by limestone aquifers. In some municipalities you’re simply not allowed to add more impervious ground cover without some sort of exception. The rest of your examples may indeed be ludicrous, but I stopped reading when you opened with something so plainly rational and sensical.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impervious_surface https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...

https://www.mit.edu/people/spirn/Public/Granite%20Garden%20R... https://www.mdpi.com/2225-1154/7/8/99/htm

[DevKoala]

You should have finished reading before getting offended. Some of his examples were very valid.

[antiterra]

Nothing about my response has anything to do with 'being offended.'

[strbean]

Reviewing them all, it seems the only remotely valid points where "LA permit approval is slow" and "California agriculture uses a lot of water"...

[DevKoala]

What about the tax on owning business items in LA? Does that sound fair?

Also, don’t you think it is insane that at a time when we are in need of jobs for an increasing population, job creation is stopped due to bureaucracy?

I love California, I am staying to create businesses too. However, there is way too much complacency among residents regarding the situation at which we have arrived due to our policies.

These policies perhaps impact business creators first, but also have massive repercussions on the quality of life of other residents.

[strbean]

> What about the tax on owning business items in LA? Does that sound fair?

From other comments, it sounds like this only applies to items exceeding some large dollar value. I'm all for increasing the tax base, especially with Prop 13 strangling our budget for things like education.

> Also, don’t you think it is insane that at a time when we are in need of jobs for an increasing population, job creation is stopped due to bureaucracy?

This certainly sucks, especially with how often regulation is abused purely to create barriers to entry and solidify the positions of entrenched players. This is a problem pretty much everywhere but Somalia though, so I'm not hugely moved by one particular instance of it in one county. We certainly have lessons to learn in this regard in California though.

[strbean]

> And then there's the hundred billion dollar high speed train to nowhere that isn't even a high speed train and (if I remember correctly) might not even have ten miles of track built.

The planned max speed for CAHSR is 220 mph, which is faster than TGV or Shinkansen, and well beyond the threshold for "high speed".

Also, nowhere? The initial route is from SJ to Burbank. How is that nowhere? This is absurd.

[robomartin]

You are confusing marketing materials with reality.

The planned speed is what they used to sell it to voters. Actual speed is ridiculous due to the issues the train would run into (if it is every finished) in every town or region it crosses. There are parts where it probably won't be allowed to go much faster than 50 mph. So, yeah, nice selling point, but, no, fake news.

Same with the San Jose to Burbank story. Forgive me if I don't hold my breath. I think they don't even have ten miles built and it has been years. And those ten miles are not even functional.

If it is ever finished, this is going to be a trillion dollar project (or more). It did not make any sense even below that price point. The entire thing is preposterous. Nobody is going to ride it (translate: not enough people to justify building it) and the cost per passenger will be so high it will be the boondoggle of the century.

This is what happens when politicians sell stuff to a public that can barely calculate the tip at a restaurant.

[strbean]

This is a gish gallop. It won't happen, and if it does, it won't work, and if it does, it won't work well enough, and if it does, nobody will want it, and if they do, it will be too expensive.

Somehow the rest of the developed world made them work, and they form a key part of the infrastructure. But, as with everything else that works well in the rest of the developed world, "It wouldn't work here because America is so special."

[musingsole]

> They passed a tax added to your property taxes that is a function of any surface area on your property that does not allow rain to come into contact with dirt.

Tamped earth structures. BOOM. When you make your billions, just cite @musingsole in your about page.

[jjeaff]

The business property tax is for property over $100k. I don't think many offices have that much furniture. Also, it does not appear to be true that this tax is assessed on businesses outside of la county. Just how exactly are the figuring out who is driving "through" the county? They have to send you the assessment forms.

[robomartin]

> The business property tax is for property over $100k. I don't think many offices have that much furniture.

No. It isn't. It applies above and below $100K. The rules are a little different on either side of that threshold.

> Also, it does not appear to be true that this tax is assessed on businesses outside of la county.

Well, then you know more than the tax assessor who visited me every year at my business and told me, almost verbatim, that if you do business in Los Angeles county or travel through the county to do business elsewhere, it doesn't matter where your home base might be, you have to pay this tax.

> Just how exactly are the figuring out who is driving "through" the county? They have to send you the assessment forms.

The way I learned of this tax, a couple of decades ago, is from a guy who knocked on my front door asking about a business next door. When I told him they were out at a conference, he asked me what my business was (we had no signage outside our industrial unit). When I told him, he said "Oh, yeah, I have you right here" as he opened a thick binder.

This guy was canvasing every single industrial center at the periphery of LA County to both assess and inform businesses they owed this tax. He was well trained. After identifying himself as working for LA county (showing ID, etc.) he asked stuff like "So, do you do business in LA County or are you just local out here". If you said "yes" to any number of his well-prepared questions out came an assessment form. He even tried to come into our facility to do an inventory. Non only was I not going to allow some random unannounced guy to come into our facility, we were doing a bunch of aerospace work that fell under ITAR regulations, NDA's, etc. You can't just walk random folks into your office when you do that kind of work. So, in what I am going to call a "third world style", he proposed an assessment value right there and then, in my lobby. I agreed and wrote the county a check.

F-ing thieves.

Think about it: Businesses in LA County have to perpetually pay taxes on their desks, chairs, tools, computers, tenant improvement (yes, that too!), SUPPLIES, etc. A perpetual tax on the damn chair you are sitting on. That's what it has come to. I don't understand why voters pass this crap and expect job creation, growth and the ability to compete with the likes of China.

A perpetual tax on my coffee machine. Brilliant.

[ryathal]

100k is pretty easy to hit with 75-100 employees. 100 desks, chairs, and computers is going to be at least that much. hopefully you don't have meeting rooms, printers/copiers, a waiting area, a break room with fridge/microwave/coffee/table/chairs...

[robomartin]

He is wrong. The tax applies above and below $100K. The process is a bit different on each side of that threshold.

https://assessor.lacounty.gov/personal-property-assessments-...

From the page:

"businesses with personal property and fixtures that cost less than $100,000 are not required to file a Business Property Statement annually. Instead, a value is established based on an initial Business Property Statement filing or by an on-site appraisal. That value may be adjusted by subsequent annual on-site appraisals."

You pay this amount annually so long as you didn't buy anything new. They can show-up and do an on-site appraisal and get you if you under reported.

[DevKoala]

It doesn’t make it less ridiculous. It disincentivizes business creation in LA. Also, due to inflation $100k will be much less in a decade when small business owners will start getting hit by it.