[yblokhin]

It's wrong for people to think they are better off than they are because such thinking leads to decisions that will hurt Joes in the end. It's exactly Joes who shoot themselves in the foot by thinking that it's an each man for himself world.

[gabeh]

"Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat, but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." --Steinbeck

[CamperBob]

I keep waiting for someone to explain why this is a bad self-image to possess, but it never seems to happen.

[StavrosK]

I'm not sure I'll be able to change your mind if it's not evident to you why that is a bad self-image, but here goes:

First, you have to define "bad". It's not bad for the planet, or bad for society as a whole. It's bad for the person who has that belief, because it leads him to act against his self-interest (as a poor person) and making him act for the interest of richer people.

Shouting "Why should the rich pay higher taxes so the poor can get better healthcare?" when you're yourself poor isn't "good" for you, is it?

[Egregore]

Actually may be that poor person thinks one step ahead and don't want rich people to go pay their taxes in another country?

[CamperBob]

First, you have to define "bad". It's not bad for the planet, or bad for society as a whole. It's bad for the person who has that belief, because it leads him to act against his self-interest (as a poor person) and making him act for the interest of richer people.

It depends on how important your principles are to you. One expression of altruism that the left in the US doesn't seem to respect at all is the idea that someone who's poor or unemployed might still believe that it's not healthy for society to grant him all sorts of entitlements.

Put another way, apparently "voting for your own self interest" is a good thing only when the lower and middle classes do it. I find this hypocritical in the extreme.

Shouting "Why should the rich pay higher taxes so the poor can get better healthcare?" when you're yourself poor isn't "good" for you, is it?

I'd like to think that my bank balance doesn't determine my political thinking, with regard to what I believe is the best way to run a society for the long term benefit of all of its members.

I wholeheartedly reject the notion of 'class' when applied to productive adults in the United States. So the rhetoric of rich versus poor means nothing to me, beyond referring to an unreasonable concern that some people seem to have with numbers stored in a bank's database under keys associated with other account holders.

[forensic]

Joe the Plumber meet Bob the Camper?

Trivializing money by referring to it as "just numbers in a bank" is surreal. Those numbers in a bank are the #1 determinant of whether you will do things like: eat, have a roof over your head, or pass on your genes.

It's pretty much impossible to overemphasize the importance of those numbers.

You're pretending that class doesn't exist while you pretend that money doesn't matter. Class is real. And class is important specifically because money does matter. A lot.

[khafra]

When you're truly rich, they're just numbers in a bank. They're a scorecard by which you determine whether you're winning. Poor people want a reliable car and a roof that doesn't leak; rich people want a higher score, but rich people are more effective at getting what they want.

As for Joe the Plumber syndrome, there's a relevant quote from Vladimir Nesov. Something along the lines of "revealed preference is not a very charitable way to interpret people's actions."

[bluedanieru]

>One expression of altruism that the left in the US doesn't seem to respect at all is the idea that someone who's poor or unemployed might still believe that it's not healthy for society to grant him all sorts of entitlements.

So if you're poor and left-wing nobody should take you seriously? What if you're rich and left-wing?

And I don't think a lot of people have a problem with the rich voting in their self-interest. It's when they control the airwaves and purchase the government that people get upset.

(Needless to say, I'm not referring to people in the 250k-500k band here, but rather that 1% that controls half the wealth of the nation.)

[CamperBob]

So if you're poor and left-wing nobody should take you seriously? What if you're rich and left-wing?

You lost me. Can you rephrase that point (or maybe I should)?

[rogerbraun]

Probably because there is a rather obvious negative interpretation: People think they have a real chance to become a millionaire, while in reality, they will probably always be comparatively poor. So they always make decisions based on this imaginary future as a rich person, even if it is much more likely that they will not be better off in the future.

[walexander]

Lots of people seem to think this is bad for plumbers, but I rarely see anyone complain when the same thing is dreamed by a 19 year old in YC.

[shrikant]

The implicit assumption is that the plumber is farther along in his life and has a lot more (family, home, social benefits, health, etc.) to lose than a 19 yr old in YC...

[tobtoh]

The first step to fixing a problem is acknowledging you have a problem ....

If the Joe the Plumber wants to support tax cuts for the rich and he's fully aware of his situation, then there is no issue having that opinion. But if his self-image is distorted (as was implied by the media reports), then it is bad to posses that as it means you will be making wrong decisions based on incorrect understandings.

The issue isn't his desire to aspire to greater wealth, it's his unrealistic understanding of what his actual financial status is.

[joshes]

The parent comment never passed judgment on this self-image, just merely asserted that it was pervasive among Americans.

[CamperBob]

Steinbeck clearly didn't mean it as a compliment, though, so I have to assume the same of anyone who just drops the quote in a thread with no elaboration.

[cema]

It's a great attitude. People tend to use their political prejudices and agendas instead of rational arguments.

[dasil003]

It just happened in the very thread you are responding to.

[nhangen]

That's ludicrous. Perhaps people make decisions based on values instead?

For example: I don't make 250k/year, but I'm opposed to increasing the taxes of that income bracket. Perhaps a true value driven person sees taxes not as a way to get more of what they didn't earn, but as something that isn't morally right.