[detritus]

How's the air up there?

The UK government's been half-heartedly trying to offload Gibraltar for decades now, but the local populace have pretty much unanimously set against any such effort, especially after the Border Closure brought about by the less than wonderful post-Franco Government.

The Britain you're railing against hasn't existed as it does in your mind in 60 years.

[VictorPath]

> The UK government's been half-heartedly trying to offload Gibraltar for decades now, but the local populace have pretty much unanimously set against any such effort

This is the exact same bull the English say for why they have army bases in North Ireland, they're supposedly at the mercy of the settlers they put in there. The six counties voted to stay in the EU, but England didn't seem to give a damn about that.

[detritus]

But in this instance it's not 'bull'. Sadly, for much of the past few decades, the UK government hasn't really cared much for Gibraltar, after scaling back its global spread. Its contemporary value is much diminished and if were to go solo or partly/wholly into Spanish hands it would do so with certain military guarantees pertaining to naval access, etc.

The population of Gibraltar is one made up mostly of Mediterranean peoples from Italy, Malta, Spain, Portugal, etc etc - the actual number of 'Paleface Brits' there is small, especially after military scaling back since the mid 90s.

I'm sorry about what's happened in Northern Ireland - as a pseudo Celt myself, it's not a situation I look at and think "Hey, that's wonderful" - but it's not at all comparable to Gibraltar, which has an almost indigenous population - evolved, not transplanted - that happens to want to remain British.

How you feel about that is up to you - and them too, as is their right.

- ed. Ah, I wished I'd checked your previous responses prior to responding. I had it in mind you might be Irish, so was responding with that in mind. I suspect you might hail from a bit further East than Ireland... . You mention that Northern Ireland voted to stay in the EU. As did Gibraltar. Gibraltar was the first result through and was something like 98% in favour of remaining. 'Unfortunately' in a democracy, majority rules dictate overall policy, and when the question is something as polarised and absolute as involvement in a supra-Governmental union, there's not much scope for picking and choosing where favourable.

It's shit when it's not 'in my favour' but that's democracy for you. Perhaps if Britain were more authoritarian things would be easier, but that would only lend itself more to the form of criticism you're levelling at it already. As the great philosopher Bart Simpson once said - "Damned if you do, damned if you don't".

[blibble]

the UK government has tried handing off NI at least three times in the last century

[happy_path]

The border has been opened since 1982, what post-Franco Government issues are you talking about?

Speaking of Gibraltar, UK occupied the Isthmus of Gibraltar in 1815, where Spain's Government ceded the Isthmus for the duration of a yellow fever epidemic... And it's been occupied until now.

I'm afraid the attitude of the UK with respect to the rest of the world keeps being the same. Some examples:

- Brexit and post-negotiation with EU.

- Northern Ireland status.

[detritus]

So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters and their frequent games at the border, slowing things down so that crossing takes many, many hours? Such actions happened prior to the treaty of Maastricht in '92 and during Britain's membership of the EU and has continued post-Brexit and will do ever more, I imagine. Gibraltar's a handy distraction whenever Madrid has problems it'd rather not have in focus.

My memory of local Gibraltarian history is a bit hazy, but the original borderline was drawn far beyond the isthmus, deep in La linea itself. Prior to about the mid 90s, the connecting area beyond the frontier was mostly wasteland, generally taken as Spanish incursion. Now, of course, it is all Spanish. Some might say as a spiteful reaction to Gibraltar's successful reclamation efforts.

Brexit's a mess, no doubting it - but to state that the general British government is has been strongly in support of Brexit would be ... not wholly correct. Unfortunately some toff idiot let the people decide, which is rarely a great idea. Hence the current status of Northern Ireland, which is also a long-standing intractable dilemma. Solutions are easy, if you're content to seriously piss off a few million people.

It's easy to hate on Britain, I get it. It's a bit passé and one-dimensional though.

ed - ah. you're Spanish? Gotcha.

[Mordisquitos]

> So you're familiar with the Guarda Civil's regular incursions into Gibraltar waters

The primary bone of contention regarding that is whether Gibraltar has its own territorial waters or not. In summary, Spain argues that the Treaty of Utrecht only ceded the land of Gibraltar and not any rights to the waters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_Gibraltar#Territoria...

[detritus]

Given the Convention of the High Seas was only formalised in 1958 - 245 years after the Treaty of Utrecht - that seems like a bit of a curious drum for Spain to keep banging. A not unsurprising drum, but .. well, Spain.

To be clear - I love Spain and its inhabitants - my folks live there to this day, near Gibraltar. I dislike my own government and I dislike the Spanish government, the latter of which I was subject to many petulant irritations when I lived in Gibraltar. There are no winners there.

The stupid thing is - prior to my moving to Britain at the end of the 90s, I honestly thought that relations were warming to the point where it was not inconceivable that Gibraltar's status with Spain might change favourably. Perhaps even joint sovereignty, or something.

Actions by the Spanish government have since nixed any such good nature and things are as bad as they were during the border closure years. They don't do themselves any favours.

- ed: oh, I should've clicked your link! Yes, that is a better reference than my likely-unrelated CotHS.

[happy_path]

Colonial politics of UK has been kept alive even during XXI century: Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, etc. The issue here is that the people in UK has been "educated" in thinking that the British Empire was a good thing, instead of thinking what it was: "a brutal and slaving war-machine".

ed - ah, you're British? Gotcha.

[detritus]

I hope you apply as critical a reflection to your own country, wherever it is, as you do Britain. I'd be curious to know why you think the general British populace is so self-revelatory - did you or do you now live here? Was that your experience? I'm sorry if so. It is not mine.

Honestly, the only historical self-congratulation I've ever much seen outside of morons in Brits is to do with scientific, cultural or social progress. I don't think most of us have much of hard-on for militaristic events that happened over a hundred years ago.

And, let it be said, as much as her excesses were, Britain's were not unique in the world. Every cunt plays their game. At least we have some small positives added.

- ed: deleted an entirely irrelevant word.

[mc32]

The locals had a referendum about reverting to Spain and overwhelmingly disapproved.

In this case the local population wants to remain British. So it would be against self determination to return it to Spain.

Same for Ceuta on the Spanish side of things, or, is Ceuta diffetent?

[Mordisquitos]

I agree on the legitimacy of the overwhelming results of the Gibraltarian sovereignty referendums, but Ceuta and Melilla are indeed different. They are integral parts of Spanish territory as much as the Scilly Islands are integral parts of the UK.

[detritus]

I must admit, I don't understand why Gibraltar doesn't have this status within the UK. Falklands et al too. Especially now, in the post-Brexit era.

France and Holland do as much with their otherwise-described colonies abroad.