[nxc18]

I think you’re missing the point.

My thesis, perhaps not well stated: depression and anxiety are linked to a flight/fight, motivation system that isn’t well tuned to a world completely free of any actual risk.

Thesis handily answers your last questions and others.

> Sometimes depression and/or anxiety is like having a hundred of events like that a day and not time to get back up.

Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. Gratitude journaling is another strategy that is very successful.

[johnchristopher]

> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.

> This is conceptually related to the concept of hedonic adaptation. If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed.

No, they wouldn't. They would suffer from depression and stop being able to feel joy. That's what depression does to your mind at some point. Put that person in the shoes of someone with cancer, that cancer is not going away.

> Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.

This is another broad statement for which there is no support.

Depression will eat your self-esteem and energy, it doesn't care if have been hit by hardships before or not.

What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.

You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.

If you ever meet someone who admits their depression to you, please keep your thesis to yourself.

edit:

> Yes, because in the absence of actual struggle in life, things like getting up start to look hard. Without seeing actual hardship, non-hardships look difficult.

Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?

[nxc18]

> Beyond the logical fallacy I won't get into how do you explain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Learned_helplessness where people/animals are having actual struggles and yet depression settles in ?

Learned helplessness seems pretty closely related to depression and I’m glad you brought it up.

The depression in animals comes from learning that they can’t influence their torment. I just read the book “Grit” and that had good treatment of the matter. The flip side of the coin is that you can learn that you actually can influence your life.

Torment without ability to influence the outcome is obviously going to lead to depression.

I think in humans, there is learned helplessness in that people know that, e.g. going for a run, getting out of bed, taking a shower will make them feel better, but they have somehow learned to believe that it won’t. I suspect for many people, depression starts out mild but becomes worse over time as they learn to not even try to be happy. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/learned-helplessne... I’ve seen it with other interventions - e.g. “why even go on antidepressants, nothing will change”.

Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.

[johnchristopher]

> Of course there are other causes for depression - abuse, neglect, etc. I’m specifically more interested in the depression that comes from having a comfortable life that looks great on paper, yet still results in people saying it is a struggle to wake up and get out of bed every day.

This is in direct contradiction with how you started this thread:

> Sometimes I wonder if a lot of depression and anxiety in western society (I say western because I don’t know enough about others) is due to life just being too comfortable.

It is now my belief you are not arguing in good faith.

[nxc18]

Key phrase is “a lot of”.

To break down the full statement:

- “Sometimes I wonder” => this is an explanation/story I’ve thought about; it is one of many models of the world and I have doubts about how applicable it is

- “a lot of” => an amount that is more than negligible but likely less than most (in other words, less than half)

- “in western society” => proposed model/story applies only to a limited western context; implies that this is describing cultural and environmental phenomenon rather than personal failing

- “(I say western because I don’t know enough about others)” => acknowledgment of blind spots and limitations in knowledge generally

- “is due to life just being too comfortable” => core assertion of (theorized) mechanism.

I don’t think there’s any mystery why abuse and trauma create depression; I’m more interested in why people without those problems (like people I know with depression) end up depressed.

I’m not the only one asking these questions. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3330161/ Of course that study points to a more direct relationship with sedentary lifestyle and isolation, which isn’t an exact fit for the “comfortable western lifestyle” story/model.

[nxc18]

> What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.

I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.

The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.

Saying that society is structured in a way that prevents people from functioning well (I.e. is not tailored to the realities of the human limbic system) is the opposite of saying that it is in depressed people’s heads or that depressed people are spoiled brats.

> > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.

While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization. FWIW I also practice gratitude journaling, so I know it’s helpful from my own life. I’ve also overcome binge eating disorder (bad enough to result in morbid obesity), anxiety (social and otherwise), and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).

> That's an overly broad statement ignoring a lot of what research has found about causes of depression.

Fun fact, we still don’t actually know what causes depression, and we’re not very good at treating it. It doesn’t seem unreasonable to speculate that the environment might be a contributing factor. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/campaign/tips/diseases/depressio...

> You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.

No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

[pope_meat]

Your words are like sandpaper. I have no doubt people who are struggling with mental health get aggravated by you.

[nxc18]

Can you please elaborate? I’m trying to avoid causing distress but I don’t see how what I’ve written is anything other than clear, neutral, and respectful (even more than usual for an Internet forum).

(PS: I don’t discuss mechanisms of depression with depressed people; reviews from friends who have recovered are generally positive, I think mainly because I am willing to put up with the emotional abuse and continue to be supportive)

[johnchristopher]

> > > What's you angle ? Depressed people are spoiled brats ? Depression is not a real struggle ? Only bored people get depression ? Just say so and stop sugar-coating what you think.

> > I’m sensing a lot of defensiveness. I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you. I don’t believe any of those things and I don’t appreciate having words put in my mouth.

> The people I’ve met with depression have a lot of that tendency to jump down people’s throats after perceiving insults that are of their own making.

Maybe you bear some responsibilities then if you keep on getting the same kind of reaction when talking with depressed people. Why do you insist on that approach, knowing it hurts them ?

I am not putting words in your mouth. I am reformulating stupid statements like: > If you were to take someone who is actually struggling and put them in the shoes of a depressed, privileged westerner, they would be overjoyed. Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be.

You may not like it but you did implied depressed people didn't know actual struggles.

> > and small bouts of what might look like depression (given that I pulled myself out of it, I think you’d define it away as not actually depression, and I can live with that).

There is a pattern here where you think you are the one who knows how other are feelings (depressed, insulted with the absence of insults, having experienced sufferings or struggles).

And survivor bias, of course (see what I did here ?).

> > > Someone who has never known struggle or threat may not realize how happy they should be. > This is another broad statement for which there is no support.

> While “may” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here, I don’t think you can say there is no support given I gave a concrete example from my own life in which I came to that realization.

Self-reported anecdata with your anti-western position and a situation that has nothing to do with depression ? No, you gave no support to your thesis.

Oddly enough you also chose to lead your reasoning on depression with that one-time event rather than your self reported bouts of depression.

> > > You seem to think depression is only in the head and try to rationalize it.

> No, I don’t. But one of the better treatments for depression, CBT, involves talking about and rationalizing ones thoughts, ultimately with the goal of getting into more productive habits of thought. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy

You are confusing a solution to a problem with its cause. The fact CBT is effective in helping keeping depression effects at bay doesn't prove thought patterns are the sole root cause of depression.

PS:

> I’m sorry if I’m triggering unpleasant feelings for you.

Strangely enough this choice of words triggers more unpleasant feelings for me than anything else you said. How curious.

PPS:

Know what I think of what happens to depressed people who experienced actual struggles in non-western societies ? They die sooner.